Church Architecture

[Socrates]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1521002' date='May 6 2008, 09:35 PM']Shhhh, don't make the rich feel bad now! Just let them tell themselves that it only costs too much money for a real church so they have to build a bowling alley instead.[/quote]
F*** it, Dude. Let's go bowling.

[dominicansoul]

I think in the past, people were trying their very best to build churches worthy of celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and housing the Presence of God. These grand cathedrals took decades to build, and lots of money, but I doubt they actually counted the costs. I'm pretty sure they felt it was worth it! It was after all for the glory of the Almighty God!

Today, I don't believe much thought goes into giving God glory anymore, seeing that a high percentage of Catholics don't believe God is Present in the Blessed Sacrament. That is what has happened...our lukewarmness and ignorance of Faith is somehow reflected on everything...the church buildings, the music, the Liturgy...I find it all lacking the splendor and beauty of the Church of the past...it is as if we are giving God the bare minimum....and not really our best work!

As for the way certain Churches are designed, such as the example posted earlier, where everything comes to a circle and surrounds the round-table altar...it makes me wonder what is really being offered to God in this building? Where is the tabernacle? Shouldn't Jesus Christ be in the center of the Church? ...at least, the tabernacle should be somewhere visible to the visitor (like off to the side, which I never really felt was right, but the Church allows it...) I would really like to question the architects and the persons involved in the design of churches like that. What exactly are their intentions? There doesn't seem to be anything sacred in that design. There are people in one of the photos walking on and around the altar area. Again, the cathedrals and churches of the past were conducive to prayer and reverence...today's architecture destroys that atmosphere. No sense of the sacred in these poorly structured churches! I wonder if God is insulted! He certainly deserves better!

Edited May 7, 2008 by dominicansoul

[SJP]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1520800' date='May 6 2008, 08:02 PM']I do not like big grand, churches. I feel really nervous in them and in all honesty, they are full of waste as it takes alot of money to heat them or cool them.[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable in a Church, as a matter of fact, it's a healthy disposition. I was actually reading about a related issue earlier today:

[quote]you oughtn't ever go to Mass, and still more obviously you oughtn't ever go to Communion, without this sense of shyness, this sense of butting in somewhere where you aren't wanted. We're terribly in danger all the time of taking God's goodness too much for granted; of bouncing up to Communion as if it were the most natural thing in the world, instead of it being a supernatural thing belonging to another world.[/quote]
Ronald Knox: The Mass In Slow Motion, 1954.

With respect to the cost of building "big grand churches," Glorifying God is never a waste.

[Justin86]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1521072' date='May 7 2008, 01:52 PM']I think in the past, people were trying their very best to build churches worthy of celebrating the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and housing the Presence of God. These grand cathedrals took decades to build, and lots of money, but I doubt they actually counted the costs. I'm pretty sure they felt it was worth it! It was after all for the glory of the Almighty God!

Today, I don't believe much thought goes into giving God glory anymore, seeing that a high percentage of Catholics don't believe God is Present in the Blessed Sacrament. That is what has happened...our lukewarmness and ignorance of Faith is somehow reflected on everything...the church buildings, the music, the Liturgy...I find it all lacking the splendor and beauty of the Church of the past...it is as if we are giving God the bare minimum....and not really our best work![/quote]
You're probably right. When I went to a TLM I noticed that everything seemed very much focused on the altar, and the priest's role as mediator was made much more obvious. The Novus Ordo, minus the tabernacle, and the priest facing the people seems more like the priest and the congregation are having a conversation together.

[quote]As for the way certain Churches are designed, such as the example posted earlier, where everything comes to a circle and surrounds the round-table altar...it makes me wonder what is really being offered to God in this building? Where is the tabernacle? Shouldn't Jesus Christ be in the center of the Church? ...at least, the tabernacle should be somewhere visible to the visitor (like off to the side, which I never really felt was right, but the Church allows it...) I would really like to question the architects and the persons involved in the design of churches like that. What exactly are their intentions? There doesn't seem to be anything sacred in that design. There are people in one of the photos walking on and around the altar area. Again, the cathedrals and churches of the past were conducive to prayer and reverence...today's architecture destroys that atmosphere. No sense of the sacred in these poorly structured churches! I wonder if God is insulted! He certainly deserves better![/quote]
Well, supposedly the intention was stadium seating (why on earth do our churches need that?). As for the people walking on and around the altar area, thats what I was trying to capture, the complete lack of reverence. People do that there without a second thought . What kind of church is designed with no reverence in mind?

Edited May 7, 2008 by Justin86

[kujo]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1521297' date='May 7 2008, 01:08 PM']Well, supposedly the intention was stadium seating (why on earth do our churches need that?). As for the people walking on and around the altar area, thats what I was trying to capture, the complete lack of reverence. People do that there without a second thought . What kind of church is designed with no reverence in mind?[/quote]

Here's another perspective on the stadium seating.

Maybe it is an attempt to make sure that everyone as an opportunity to experience the mass visually. I know that in some old school cathedrals (St. Patrick's in Manhattan comes to mind), it can be extremely difficult to see if you are in the back row. With stadium seating, it allows everyone to see better...so long as it doesn't become like a hockey arena or something.

I don't know that that is the reasoning and I could be completely wrong. Now, if they put a scoreboard up and some 52" plasma screens....that would be a different story....

[Justin86]

[quote name='kujo' post='1521307' date='May 8 2008, 02:19 AM']Here's another perspective on the stadium seating.

Maybe it is an attempt to make sure that everyone as an opportunity to experience the mass visually. I know that in some old school cathedrals (St. Patrick's in Manhattan comes to mind), it can be extremely difficult to see if you are in the back row. With stadium seating, it allows everyone to see better...so long as it doesn't become like a hockey arena or something.

I don't know that that is the reasoning and I could be completely wrong. Now, if they put a scoreboard up and some 52" plasma screens....that would be a different story.... [/quote]
I have an absolute need to see what's going on? Reverence to God is, always, always, the most important thing.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='kujo' post='1521307' date='May 7 2008, 06:19 PM']Here's another perspective on the stadium seating.

Maybe it is an attempt to make sure that everyone as an opportunity to experience the mass visually. I know that in some old school cathedrals (St. Patrick's in Manhattan comes to mind), it can be extremely difficult to see if you are in the back row. With stadium seating, it allows everyone to see better...so long as it doesn't become like a hockey arena or something.

I don't know that that is the reasoning and I could be completely wrong. Now, if they put a scoreboard up and some 52" plasma screens....that would be a different story.... [/quote]

Thanks to the Polish immigrants, several London churches are so full on Sundays that you have people kneeling on the pavement outside because they can't get in. I had to do that at a church in Palestine once. It was not the most comfortable experience in the world, but I still knew where I was and Who I was there for, even though I couldn't see.

The most important things about the Mass cannot be seen by the human eye anyway. Vision is not that important. Just knowledge of where you are.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='SJP' post='1521100' date='May 7 2008, 01:22 AM']There's nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable in a Church, as a matter of fact, it's a healthy disposition. I was actually reading about a related issue earlier today:
Ronald Knox: The Mass In Slow Motion, 1954.

With respect to the cost of building "big grand churches," Glorifying God is never a waste.[/quote]


I'm uncomfortable in buildings with high ceilings, not just churches. That means large mall thoroughfares and banquet halls the like.

And its not the building cost that I feel about its the maintenance costs and the heating costs. It's not really good stewardship, and we know this now...whereas in the middle ages they didn't understand the environmental impact of energy creation and waste. And with less people they didn't have to be concerned. Also as someone who's dabbled in architecture I know it's simply not very safe to repair a 100+ foot ceiling church or mall. And they do need repair before gobs of ancient plaster come down on someone's head.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1519781' date='May 5 2008, 07:06 PM']Modern churches are often ugly. The more I look into theology, the more I realize why good church architecture is important.

Here's a little fun for you...download Google Sketch-up and design the kind of church you'd like to see...it's a fun program once you get used to it...I've made lots of cool church designs.

The following is one example...it's not transparent, I just made it look that way so you could see the inside and outside at once:

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v172/PrRaphael/TranslucentChurch.jpg[/img][/quote]
Man, I might just end up designing the altar and such! I didn't know you could make the walls transparent!

[quote name='SJP' post='1520687' date='May 6 2008, 05:18 PM']They might as well celebrate Mass in an airplane hanger. I could just imagine where the Tabernacle is located... "take a right, go down the hall, down the first set of stairs and look behind my 1971 Barney vestment, and voila!"

There is actually some beautiful work being done that truly glorifies God... Duncan Stroik comes to mind: [url="http://stroik.com/"]http://stroik.com/[/url][/quote]
Wow. That IS beautiful. The Guadalupe Shrine has an actual High altar, and not a freestanding one. Crazygood. I think all the altars in my diocese are freestanding. Alas...

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1520691' date='May 6 2008, 05:22 PM']That is truely beautiful.


BTW, can anyone E-Mail me that Google Sketch-up tool? My computer is sooooo fracked it won't even download a thing from google now, (I would nuke the comp and start over but my Brother has some stuff on it still so, no nukeage)[/quote]
Lawl. I know the feeling. Nuking computers is fun! But not if there are files to back up.

[quote name='Deo Iuvente' post='1520881' date='May 6 2008, 08:06 PM']I wish people wouldn't bring up cost. Do you know who built those beautiful churches we see? Not the rich, but the poor. People saved up for years, scratching up pennies and dimes, and single dollars to build a church. My parish is a good example. It was built by the Irish factory workers who went to manayunk daily to work for almost nothing, yet they still built [url="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1239/1428874476_e5e51776d7.jpg?v=0"]This[/url]. My parish is still not rich. A little better of than before, but we certainly don't have people with a lot of money, yet four years ago, we restored the whole thing, and reversed the changes that came in with the "Spirit of Vatican II". Now, we're on a capital campaign to fix the windows and the bells, which we could'nt afford then. Peasants built those rich cathedrals we see. Poor farmers built those wonderful churches we see in Idaho. What reason do rich suburbanites have for building stadiums with little or no Catholic imagery, with terrible layouts and the tabernacle out somewhere? If people who made less than us could build St.Patrick's, why do we build the Taj Mahoney? Yes, it took my parish nearly 20 years to get to [url="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jdtreat/1352541024/in/set-72157601835885816/"]This[/url], but it's well worth it. Let's build God a palace, not a trailer.[/quote]
Great post.

[dominicansoul]

They don't necessarily have to have tall high ceilings and "waste energy". I'm speaking mostly of BEAUTY and structures allowing an environment conducive to reverence. I believe the Tabernacle should always be the central point of the whole building. The Altar should be certainly it's high point (not surrounded by stadium seating...,) worshippers facing the Altar and the Sanctuary set apart to symbolize it's importance. My parish church is a tiny little chapel in the woods. No high ceilings. Beautiful raredo's behind the altar, pews in their traditional setting, steps separating the pews from the Altar and Sanctuary. Simple, efficient and beautiful.

As for the Catholics of the Middle-ages not understanding the environment and the high cost and saving energy, etcetera...I have absolutely no idea what the people of the past knew about these things...all I can say at looking at the structures they have left behind is "WOW!" Worship of God was definitely important to them, and they surely held God in high regard! To sacrifice so much money and time and talents all for building such magnificent structures says a lot about where their hearts must have been.

I'm thankful to our faithful brethren. I'm thankful for what they have left behind. Can you imagine St. Peter's Basilica looking any differently? I can't!

[Galloglasses]

It may also be interesting to note there is a Dominican friary in Newry City that looks rather quaint and small on the outside, then when you step in its like being smacked to the face with a bucket of water. High arced roof, pillars with alcoves at the top of them with statues, STATUES of Saints there. A beautiful and grand Pipe Organ on the second floor, (who the caretaker told me was paid for BY THE PARISH PEOPLE several years ago within a week on donations alone.), the beuty and majesty of the place is astounding.

[SJP]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1522759' date='May 8 2008, 10:58 PM']I'm uncomfortable in buildings with high ceilings, not just churches. That means large mall thoroughfares and banquet halls the like.

And its not the building cost that I feel about its the maintenance costs and the heating costs. It's not really good stewardship, and we know this now...whereas in the middle ages they didn't understand the environmental impact of energy creation and waste. And with less people they didn't have to be concerned. Also as someone who's dabbled in architecture I know it's simply not very safe to repair a 100+ foot ceiling church or mall. And they do need repair before gobs of ancient plaster come down on someone's head.[/quote]


If there is a conflict between stewardship and worship... worship should take precedence.

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='SJP' post='1524753' date='May 11 2008, 10:01 AM']If there is a conflict between stewardship and worship... worship should take precedence.[/quote]


Umm. So there's nothing left for us to thank God about? Absolutely, not in my book. Just as if I were to ever build a house it would be ecologically friendly and create safer ways to repair it, if I were to build a church I'd choose the same for it. Maybe because I'm from the northeast and learned about saints and martyrs who used simplicity to reach people i don't get catheridals.

Would you want to risk someone's life just to have a 150 foot cealing to God?

[Justin86]

[quote name='Autumn Dusk' post='1524795' date='May 12 2008, 12:29 AM']Would you want to risk someone's life just to have a 150 foot cealing to God?[/quote]
I don't think that when they built these Gothic cathedrals they were oblivious to falling plaster, and other such objects. Michelangelo got up high enough to paint the Sistine Chapel ceiling so I'm sure they had people up there doing regular maintenance on the ceilings.

Really, everyone thinks that if you lived during the Middle Ages you were a complete retard that didn't have a clue about how stuff worked. That's not reality.

As for "risking someone's life", well we do that to build skyscrapers even more than we do cathedrals. Heck, we risk lives just to keep their windows clean, all in the name for the glory of a city. I fail to see why we shouldn't be doing the same for God.

[Kitty]

Can't we just be grateful that churches are still being built at all rather than grumbling over the architecture?

[Galloglasses]

I risked my life several times getting up on a ladder to clean out the gutters on the roof of my house, a part people weren't even going to seen and thus, my death would be even more pointless.

I fail to see where you're going about we should not build cathedrals and other houses of God where there is a risk. There is a risk to everything, and if said person dies by accident from fallen a couple hundred feet from the cathedral, won't he or she be dieing trying to glorify God anyway?

And I think I speak for myself when I say I don't give two cuds about energy efficency. Least of my troubles.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1524890' date='May 12 2008, 02:48 AM']Can't we just be grateful that churches are still being built at all rather than grumbling over the architecture?[/quote]
If we're going to start settling for minimum expectations we might as well hand out condoms to teens and tell them not to have sex. As Catholics we trust that through the Sacrifice of Christ we can do a lot better than to settle for the expected behavior of our society in ourselves and our children. Why shouldn't our churches reflect that?

*edited for clarity*

Edited May 11, 2008 by Justin86

[Justin86]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1524900' date='May 12 2008, 02:50 AM']And I think I speak for myself when I say I don't give two cuds about energy efficency. Least of my troubles.[/quote]
Exactly. I mean, do they really even try to get heat all the way up to the top of the cathedral? Average height is only six feet you know. There's really no need to make sure its warm and cozy at the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

[Kitty]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1524905' date='May 11 2008, 12:51 PM']If we're going to start settling for minimum expectations we might as well hand out condoms to teens and tell them not to have sex.[/quote]

o_O Um, what? No, all I'm saying is I think it's a good idea to not be so picky over church architecture and just be glad that our government even allows building of churches.

The designer of the building obviously believed their design to be appropriate for the type of building that was being constructed. Maybe they were not Catholic. It's obvious that they were not intending the building to be disrespectful towards God.

If you're so obsessed with making every church a traditional church, go out and build one yourself.

[Galloglasses]

He probably WILL in the future, we are argueing here both wether the design is important and what we should be doing in the future. I advocate taking the horrible, (artistically speaking), Chruches and renovating them. And making future Churches more appropriate.