kujo Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565830' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:32 AM']I choose my words quite carefully. That's how I got my theology degree. To elevate a judgment of the prudential order to the level of dogma is heretical.[/quote] So, believing the CCC over, say, [b]YOU[/b], would be heretical?
KnightofChrist Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1565829' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:32 PM']That Catechism disagrees, and that trumps your opinion, are we gonna go round in circles all night long?[/quote] Prudential judgment does not trump official Apostolic and Traditional teaching.
Deus te Amat Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 The Pope is infallible in matters of Faith and Morals. I'm pretty sure that the Death Penalty is a Moral matter. Seems clear cut to me. St. Augustine and St. Thomas wrote in a time before High profile security prisons, where the conditions would be near or equal to those found in third world Countries... where the death penalty would be accepted under the teachings of JPII and the Catechism. "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly what it says. Even though the death penalty is needed in some instances, killing should not occur unless necessary. Or are you telling me that there WEREN'T six cities of refuge in the Old Testament?
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1565838' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:35 PM']No one has done so...so your random and irrelevant statement doesn't really seem to exhibit your careful choosing of words to me! But you have a theology degree so you must be right and everyone else, including the Pope, must be wrong. [/quote] I hold that Pope John Paul II's opinion on penal systems today is utter nonsense. For one thing different countries have different standards, and to compare a prison in France to a prison on Uganda is complete foolishness.
KnightofChrist Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565840' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:36 PM']No, it doesn't trump anyone's opinion. Because whether or not penal systems today are better than in the past is not a dogmatic truth. The State, by divine revelation and the natural law, has the power of the sword, and no man, not even a pope, can alter divine revelation or the immutable natural law.[/quote] Indeed.
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565844' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:36 PM']Prudential judgment does not trump official Apostolic and Traditional teaching.[/quote] Your interpretation of A&T teaching.
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565848' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:38 PM']For one thing different countries have different standards, and to compare a prison in France to a prison on Uganda is complete foolishness.[/quote] I already covered this, where ya been?
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1565845' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:36 PM']"Thou shalt not kill"[/quote] It is important to remember that the Hebrew and Greek texts of scripture actually say, "You shall not murder," and not, "You shall not kill." There is a big difference between killing, which may be necessary, and murder, which is never licit.
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1565845' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:36 PM']The Pope is infallible in matters of Faith and Morals. I'm pretty sure that the Death Penalty is a Moral matter. Seems clear cut to me. St. Augustine and St. Thomas wrote in a time before High profile security prisons, where the conditions would be near or equal to those found in third world Countries... where the death penalty would be accepted under the teachings of JPII and the Catechism. "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly what it says. Even though the death penalty is needed in some instances, killing should not occur unless necessary. Or are you telling me that there WEREN'T six cities of refuge in the Old Testament?[/quote] Don't you wish you knew better than the Pope, too?
kujo Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565848' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:38 AM']I hold that Pope John Paul II's opinion on penal systems today is utter nonsense. For one thing different countries have different standards, and to compare a prison in France to a prison on Uganda is complete foolishness.[/quote] Are you actually incabable of realizing that we ARE AGREEING THE THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE IT WILL BE NECESSARY TO KEEP SOCIETY SAFE???!?!??! MUST I SHOUT IT??!?!?!?!
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1565864' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:41 PM']Are you actually incabable of realizing that we ARE AGREEING THE THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE IT WILL BE NECESSARY TO KEEP SOCIETY SAFE???!?!??! MUST I SHOUT IT??!?!?!?![/quote] Shhh. He has a theology degree.
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1565856' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:39 PM']I already covered this, where ya been?[/quote] I am glad that you covered this topic already, since it shows the utter foolishnes of the pope's remarks.
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1565865' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:42 PM']Shhh. He has a theology degree.[/quote] Yes, I have been formally trained in theology. And what are your credentials exactly?
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565866' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:42 PM']I am glad that you covered this topic already, since it shows the utter foolishnes of the pope's remarks.[/quote] Your statement exemplifies your foolishness, not the Pope's. You must have misunderstood the Pope.
kujo Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565870' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:43 AM']Yes, I have been formally trained in theology. And what are your credentials exactly?[/quote] Apparently being able to read the CCC and trust the opinion of a man much smarter than her, me and you. I'm sure your theology degree is cute, though.
Deus te Amat Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Are you calling the pope foolish? Excuse me, sir, but are you saying that you are wiser the Pope? Know more than the Pope? Are you saying that you want to be Pope?
kujo Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565866' date='Jun 10 2008, 12:42 AM']I am glad that you covered this topic already, since it shows the utter foolishnes of the pope's remarks.[/quote] You better not be dissin' Pope John Paul the Great with that statement.
Apotheoun Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='kujo' post='1565864' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:41 PM']Are you actually incabable of realizing that we ARE AGREEING THE THERE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE IT WILL BE NECESSARY TO KEEP SOCIETY SAFE???!?!??! MUST I SHOUT IT??!?!?!?![/quote] Ah, but do we agree? You see I do not accept Pope John Paul II's prudential judgment as relevant. It is up to the State, and not the Church, to determine when the death penalty is used. I think that you have a more limited view on the use of the death penalty that I have.
Alycin Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1565870' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:43 PM']Yes, I have been formally trained in theology. And what are your credentials exactly?[/quote] I submit to the Church and the Holy See. ((and yes, if Pope Benedict XVI makes an official statement declaring that JPII was wrong and that the catechism has one hell of a typo, I will recant.)) Edited June 10, 2008 by Alycin
KnightofChrist Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 [quote name='Alycin' post='1565852' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:38 PM']Your interpretation of A&T teaching.[/quote] As well as Jesus Christ, Mother Church, St. Peter, St. Paul, the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, Pope Pius XII, Cardinal Ratzinger now Pope Benedict XVI, Cardinal Avery Dulles, Cardinal Bernardin, Romano Amerio as well as many many others through out time.
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