Death Penalty

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565516' date='Jun 9 2008, 08:37 PM']2267 [b]"[u]Assuming that the guility party's idenity and responsiblity have been fully determinated, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penality, [size=4]if that is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressors[/size]. If however, non lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safetly from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.[/u] Today, in fact as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself- the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically non-existent."[/b][/quote]

i think i said something earlier to the effect that you're not going to be able to ensure the safety of others with some of the most dangerous criminals. How do you render the most violent incapable of doing harm without taking away their mental faculties (i.e. "the possibility of redeeming himself")?

(Sorry - this is a touchy one for me.)

[Alycin]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1565577' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:02 PM']i think i said something earlier to the effect that you're not going to be able to ensure the safety of others with some of the most dangerous criminals. How do you render the most violent incapable of doing harm without taking away their mental faculties (i.e. "the possibility of redeeming himself")?

(Sorry - this is a touchy one for me.)[/quote]


Solitary confinement in a high-security prison has worked thus far.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565574' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:01 PM']So you are saying your interpretation trumps the clear wording of the catechism?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.[/quote]

St. Thomas Aquinas: "The fact that the evil, as long as they live, can be corrected from their errors does not prohibit the fact that they may be justly executed, for the danger which threatens from their way of life is greater and more certain than the good which may be expected from their improvement. They also have at that critical point of death the opportunity to be converted to God through repentance. And if they are so stubborn that even at the point of death their heart does not draw back from evil, it is possible to make a highly probable judgement that they would never come away from evil to the right use of their powers." Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III, 146.


Saints Thomas Aquinas and Augustine. In addition to the required punishment for murder and the deterrence standards, both Saints find that executing murderers is also an act of charity and mercy. Saint Augustine confirms that " . . . inflicting capital punishment . . . protects those who are undergoing capital punishment from the harm they may suffer . . . through increased sinning which might continue if their life went on." (On the Lord's Sermon, 1.20.63-64.) Saint Thomas Aquinas finds that " . . . the death inflicted by the judge profits the sinner, if he be converted, unto the expiation of his crime; and, if he be not converted, it profits so as to put an end to the sin, because the sinner is thus deprived of the power to sin anymore." (Summa Theologica, II-II, 25, 6 ad 2.)


Pope Pius XII: "When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live." 9/14/52.

[url="http://www.homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/12/catholic-and-other-christian-references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx"]Source[/url]

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565584' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:06 PM']Solitary confinement in a high-security prison has worked thus far.[/quote]




not for the guards.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565623' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:19 PM']St. Thomas Aquinas: "The fact that the evil, as long as they live, can be corrected from their errors does not prohibit the fact that they may be justly executed, for the danger which threatens from their way of life is greater and more certain than the good which may be expected from their improvement. They also have at that critical point of death the opportunity to be converted to God through repentance. And if they are so stubborn that even at the point of death their heart does not draw back from evil, it is possible to make a highly probable judgement that they would never come away from evil to the right use of their powers." Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III, 146.


Saints Thomas Aquinas and Augustine. In addition to the required punishment for murder and the deterrence standards, both Saints find that executing murderers is also an act of charity and mercy. Saint Augustine confirms that " . . . inflicting capital punishment . . . protects those who are undergoing capital punishment from the harm they may suffer . . . through increased sinning which might continue if their life went on." (On the Lord's Sermon, 1.20.63-64.) Saint Thomas Aquinas finds that " . . . the death inflicted by the judge profits the sinner, if he be converted, unto the expiation of his crime; and, if he be not converted, it profits so as to put an end to the sin, because the sinner is thus deprived of the power to sin anymore." (Summa Theologica, II-II, 25, 6 ad 2.)


Pope Pius XII: "When it is a question of the execution of a man condemned to death it is then reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned of the benefit of life, in expiation of his fault, when already, by his fault, he has dispossessed himself of the right to live." 9/14/52.

[url="http://www.homicidesurvivors.com/2006/10/12/catholic-and-other-christian-references-support-for-the-death-penalty.aspx"]Source[/url][/quote]

As much as I respect those you quoted, the Catechism trumps them.

[Alycin]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565623' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:19 PM']blah blah blah[/quote]

Are you really gonna play this game? Saints have opposing views on topics all the time, among other Saints. And guess what? Pope JPII opposed the death penalty.

The catechism is clear.

[Jaime]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_20010621_death-penalty_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretar...penalty_en.html[/url]


[quote]The Holy See has consistently sought the abolition of the death penalty and his Holiness Pope John Paul II has personally and indiscriminately appealed on numerous occasions in order that such sentences should be commuted to a lesser punishment, which may offer time and incentive for the reform of the guilty, hope to the innocent and safeguard the well-being of civil society itself and of those individuals who through no choice of theirs have become deeply involved in the fate of those condemmed to death.

The Pope had most earnestly hoped and prayed that a worldwide moratorium might have been among the spiritual and moral benefits of the Great Jubilee which he proclaimed for the Year Two Thousand, so that dawn of the Third Millennium would have been remembered forever as the pivotal moment in history when the community of nations finally recognised that it now possesses the means to defend itself without recourse to punishments which are "cruel and unnecessary". This hope remains strong but it is unfulfilled, and yet there is encouragement in the growing awareness that "it is time to abolish the death penalty".

It is surely more necessary than ever that the inalienable dignity of human life be universally respected and recognised for its immeasurable value. The Holy See has engaged itself in the pursuit of the abolition of capital punishment and an integral part of the defence of human life at every stage of its development and does so in defiance of any assertion of a culture of death.

Where the death penalty is a sign of desperation, civil society is invited to assert its belief in a justice that salvages hope from the ruin of the evils which stalk our world. The universal abolition of the death penalty would be a courageous reaffirmation of the belief that humankind can be successful in dealing with criminality and of our refusal to succumb to despair before such forces, and as such it would regenerate new hope in our very humanity.[/quote]

That reaaaaally should quiet down the naysayers

[kujo]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565637' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:24 PM']Are you really gonna play this game? Saints have opposing views on topics all the time, among other Saints. And guess what? Pope JPII opposed the death penalty.

The catechism is clear.[/quote]

Word!

It should only be used in the absolute-rarest of circumstances. I can understand the arguments of those on here who are in favor of it, but it's not what the Church teaches.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1565644' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:27 PM']That reaaaaally should quiet down the naysayers[/quote]


i get it. i understand the normative, and i totally agree with it in my head.

However, this issue is still too subjective for me, and i don't think i am the only one. My path to holiness and a pure heart is very, very, very long.

[Jaime]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1565649' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:31 PM']i get it. i understand the normative, and i totally agree with it in my head.

However, this issue is still too subjective for me, and i don't think i am the only one. My path to holiness and a pure heart is very, very, very long.[/quote]

not nearly as long as mine

[Alycin]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1565649' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:31 PM']i get it. i understand the normative, and i totally agree with it in my head.

However, this issue is still too subjective for me, and i don't think i am the only one. My path to holiness and a pure heart is very, very, very long.[/quote]

I understand that, and I understand you and I... what's the word... croutons I lost it... ummm... I'll get back to you. It's similar to 'approve' but not the same meaning... grrr...

My problem is with people who put their politics before the Church, or who try to declare they know better than the Church, or that the Church isn't capable of saying what it means.

[Jaime]

From a Church doctrine perspective, the caveat is left because historically there have been times when it was safer to execute than to hold a prisoner. that is no longer true today. And as its been pointed out, its cheaper to keep them alive than to execute.

As far as the safety of guards in ad-seg units, I spent seven years working on products to keep guards safer (well, cleaner) and as probably one of of the few (and I'm guessing only) member of phatmass that has been in maximum security and supermax prisons, the ad seg units are far far safer for guards than gen pop.

[KnightofChrist]

Should I remind you that it is rude, and uncalled for to replace the words of another with "blah blah blah" and makes it hard for one to take you seriously when you play games like that.

The quotes provided are stating traditional catholic teaching on the matter of Capital Punishment, should I also remind you something that has been taught for so long is not a matter of opinion, but official teaching, which the CCC upholds, you simply do not grasp that.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565673' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:40 PM']Should I remind you that it is rude, and uncalled for to replace the words of another with "blah blah blah" and makes it hard for one to take you seriously when you play games like that.

The quotes provided are stating traditional catholic teaching on the matter of Capital Punishment, should I also remind you something that has been taught for so long is not a matter of opinion, but official teaching, which the CCC upholds, you simply do not grasp that.[/quote]

Could it be possible that she substituted "blah blah blah" so that your lengthy (but very informative) post wouldn't drag down the screen?

[Alycin]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565673' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:40 PM']Should I remind you that it is rude, and uncalled for to replace the words of another with "blah blah blah" and makes it hard for one to take you seriously when you play games like that.

The quotes provided are stating traditional catholic teaching on the matter of Capital Punishment, should I also remind you something that has been taught for so long is not a matter of opinion, but official teaching, which the CCC upholds, you simply do not grasp that.[/quote]


If a quote is extra long, I erase it and write "blah blah blah" or, in the case of a huge picture, "humungo image"... don't worry, I'm not singling you out.

[kujo]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565660' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:33 PM']I understand that, and I understand you and I... what's the word... croutons I lost it... ummm... I'll get back to you. It's similar to 'approve' but not the same meaning... grrr...

My problem is with people who put their politics before the Church, or who try to declare they know better than the Church, or that the Church isn't capable of saying what it means.[/quote]

Word. St. John Bosco once said "My politics are those of the Our Father."

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' post='1565677' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:41 PM']Could it be possible that she substituted "blah blah blah" so that your lengthy (but very informative) post wouldn't drag down the screen?[/quote]

Nope, not that I see. If it was to undo the lengthiness of the post there was still no need to have "quoted" and thus modified the post. When a simple reply without quotes would have done that.

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565693' date='Jun 9 2008, 11:47 PM']Nope, not that I see. If it was to undo the lengthiness of the post there was still no need to have "quoted" and thus modified the post. When a simple reply without quotes would have done that.[/quote]

Wow. Too bad you were so offended.

Edited June 10, 2008 by kujo

[Alycin]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1565693' date='Jun 9 2008, 10:47 PM']Nope, not that I see. If it was to undo the lengthiness of the post there was still no need to have "quoted" and thus modified the post. When a simple reply without quotes would have done that.[/quote]


Oh please.

Can we get back on topic? Or is it easier for you to shift the attention to something else so that no one pays attention to your weak argument?

((And for the record, I always hit the reply button with a quote if I am replying to what someone has said specifically--it helps avoid confusion, and it's what it is there for.))

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1565660' date='Jun 9 2008, 09:33 PM']I understand that, and I understand you and I... what's the word... croutons I lost it... ummm... I'll get back to you. It's similar to 'approve' but not the same meaning... grrr...

My problem is with people who put their politics before the Church, or who try to declare they know better than the Church, or that the Church isn't capable of saying what it means.[/quote]

I do not place politics before the Church. I have merely stated the traditional teaching of the Church on the matter of capital punishment.

It doesn't matter if I am being singled out or not with "blah" its rather rude, and I would ask that you cease doing so, at least to my posts.