Death Penalty

[Deb]

When you have a justice system that is inherently racist as far as executions are concerned, you should not be putting people to death.
When you have a justice system that has admittedly, over and over, sentenced the innocent to death, you should not be putting people to death.
I can show you five studies that show executing people costs more money. Yeah, cheaper if you want to make sure they just get a trial and fried five minutes later. Then, we probably wouldn't have that messy clean up fifteen years down the road when we find out they are innocent.
When man is involved with making life and death decisions, man will make mistakes. Killing even one innocent person makes the death penalty morally unacceptable.

[Deb]

Texas puts reams of people to death, like handing out chiclets. Doesn't seem to deter anyone in Texas from killing each other.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Deb' post='1560532' date='Jun 5 2008, 11:23 PM']Killing even one innocent person makes the death penalty morally unacceptable.[/quote]
Letting a convicted wanton serial killer is what is morally unacceptable.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1559262' date='Jun 5 2008, 02:50 AM']So you don't like what the catechism has to say about the need for the death penalty being practically non-existant, or what PJ2 said about it being cruel and unusual?[/quote]
I don't believe God was wrong in the Bible, nor that nearly 2000 years of Catholic teaching were wrong. God does not command people to do what is intrinsically immoral. Even the modern catechism acknowledges that the state has the right to execute criminals.

Trying to claim that executing a murderer is morally no different from abortion or other murders is plain wrong. As our Pope has stated:[quote]Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals,[b] it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/b][/quote]

[kujo]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1560558' date='Jun 5 2008, 11:40 PM']I don't believe God was wrong in the Bible, nor that nearly 2000 years of Catholic teaching were wrong. God does not command people to do what is intrinsically immoral. Even the modern catechism acknowledges that the state has the right to execute criminals.

Trying to claim that executing a murderer is morally no different from abortion or other murders is plain wrong. As our Pope has stated:[/quote]

Agreed. Mos def.

[rckllnknny]

what about jesus being put to death. that was okay tho??

[Alycin]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1560558' date='Jun 5 2008, 10:40 PM']I don't believe God was wrong in the Bible([color="#FF0000"]**Isn't the church there to help us understand the bible?**[/color], nor that nearly 2000 years of Catholic teaching were wrong. God does not command people to do what is intrinsically immoral. Even the modern catechism acknowledges that the state has the right to execute criminals[color="#FF0000"]**you left off the part about how it says IF THAT IS THE ONLY WAY**[/color].

Trying to claim that executing a murderer is morally no different from abortion or other murders is plain wrong.[color="#FF0000"]**I never said that. Tell me where I said that?**[/quote][/color]


You sidestepped my question, so I'll break it down into simpler yes-or-no questions.

1) Do you believe that the catechism is wrong in saying that the death penalty is virtually unnecessary now that we have the means to restrain criminals without taking their lives?

2) Do you disagree with JPII that the death penalty is now cruel and unusual because of the reasons stated in question one?

[rckllnknny]

its cruel and unusual.

Edited June 6, 2008 by rckllnknny

[Winchester]

So what do we do with violent offenders to insure the safety of prisoners, guards and citizens?

[fides quarens intellectum]

Insure them for what? just kidding.

i don't think you can fully ensure the safety of guards and other prisoners.

[Winchester]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1561023' date='Jun 6 2008, 12:22 PM']i don't think you can fully ensure the safety of guards and other prisoners.[/quote]That wasn't the question, though. Certainly we can't "fully" insure them, but the last time I checked, killing a rapist/murderer/pedophile, pretty much rendered the rest of us safe from that one.

The only other option is permanent solitary in specially designed cells.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1561033' date='Jun 6 2008, 11:26 AM']The only other option is permanent solitary in specially designed cells.[/quote]

Really?

[Winchester]

You're right. There are more options. None of them are very pleasant. Chemical restraints comes to mind...

I've said it before that people don't seem to care about the people inside the prisons being safe and they don't account for the actions neccessary to keep those inside the prisons safe. Violent offenders don't stop just because they are in prison.

I would extend the death penalty to rapists, pedophiles and gang/mafia leaders. I'd rather it not be called a penalty, since I think of it as a means to protect society rather than a deterrant, which it certainly is. There is a rather foolish comment that it's not deterring people in Texas. I say that comment is foolish because it makes the assumption that since murder continues in Texas that the death penalty doesn't discourage murder. It strains reason to assume that not one person has avoided murdering someone out of fear of being put to death. I reckon most people don't get past the idea of prison. Nonetheless, the primary function of the death penalty, in my mind, is to protect society. Hence my idea of extending it to other dangerous criminals.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Deb' post='1560534' date='Jun 5 2008, 09:24 PM']Texas puts reams of people to death, like handing out chiclets. Doesn't seem to deter anyone in Texas from killing each other.[/quote]


I don't agree with capital punishment in cases where innocent are put to death, or racism was the motivation in convicting the criminal. I only agree with it in cases where there is no question about the conviction, about the murderer, about the crimes. In the example of McDuff, I saw it is absolutely necessary. Texas killed McDuff. McDuff can no longer kill. We are safe from him. I see it as a case of self-defense.

I used to work in law-enforcement. One of my co-workers, a warrants officer, had two beautfiul daughters. One night, while she was out, a sick, perverted neighbor broke into their house. He tried to rape the 14 year old, but she put up a fight, and was cut open and gutted like a fish. When my friend, the warrants officer arrived at her house, everything had been turned upside down, and there was blood everywhere. She found her daughter's mutilated body. Why was it okay for her daughter to get murdered so mercilessly and then it's WRONG to punish the murderer??? When murder hits home, I don't care what anybody else says. I think God understands how the victims families feel. This guy went up for parole in 2001. He was let out of prison. Can you believe it? He's out to do this very thing again!!! I think they should have put him to death, because I think it's pretty foolish to let a butcher like this out into society. I don't know if it deters murder, but it deters the convicted murderer! They will NEVER KILL again! They will NEVER DESTROY families again! And maybe...just maybe...God uses capital punishment to punish these monsters! We don't know, do we???

[Autumn Dusk]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='1560934' date='Jun 6 2008, 12:05 PM']what about jesus being put to death. that was okay tho??[/quote]

I wasn't aware that Jesus killed anyone...and as we've stated murder and/or brutal crimes that leave someone grossly incapacitated are justifiable reasons to use the death peanlity.

[Alycin]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1561083' date='Jun 6 2008, 01:08 PM']I don't agree with capital punishment in cases where innocent are put to death, or racism was the motivation in convicting the criminal. I only agree with it in cases where there is no question about the conviction, about the murderer, about the crimes. In the example of McDuff, I saw it is absolutely necessary. Texas killed McDuff. McDuff can no longer kill. We are safe from him. I see it as a case of self-defense.

I used to work in law-enforcement. One of my co-workers, a warrants officer, had two beautfiul daughters. One night, while she was out, a sick, perverted neighbor broke into their house. He tried to rape the 14 year old, but she put up a fight, and was cut open and gutted like a fish. When my friend, the warrants officer arrived at her house, everything had been turned upside down, and there was blood everywhere. She found her daughter's mutilated body. Why was it okay for her daughter to get murdered so mercilessly and then it's WRONG to punish the murderer??? When murder hits home, I don't care what anybody else says. I think God understands how the victims families feel. This guy went up for parole in 2001. He was let out of prison. Can you believe it? He's out to do this very thing again!!! I think they should have put him to death, because I think it's pretty foolish to let a butcher like this out into society. I don't know if it deters murder, but it deters the convicted murderer! They will NEVER KILL again! They will NEVER DESTROY families again! And maybe...just maybe...God uses capital punishment to punish these monsters! We don't know, do we???[/quote]


I've made it clear to my parents that if I am ever murdered I want it to be known to the judge and jury that I don't want my killer to have the death penalty. They've known this since I was about 12.

I know not everyone's like that... but my reasoning is, I want people to have as much time as possible to reconcile with God.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1561079' date='Jun 6 2008, 01:05 PM']You're right. There are more options. None of them are very pleasant. Chemical restraints comes to mind...

I've said it before that people don't seem to care about the people inside the prisons being safe and they don't account for the actions neccessary to keep those inside the prisons safe. Violent offenders don't stop just because they are in prison.

I would extend the death penalty to rapists, pedophiles and gang/mafia leaders. I'd rather it not be called a penalty, since I think of it as a means to protect society rather than a deterrant, which it certainly is. There is a rather foolish comment that it's not deterring people in Texas. I say that comment is foolish because it makes the assumption that since murder continues in Texas that the death penalty doesn't discourage murder. It strains reason to assume that not one person has avoided murdering someone out of fear of being put to death. I reckon most people don't get past the idea of prison. Nonetheless, the primary function of the death penalty, in my mind, is to protect society. Hence my idea of extending it to other dangerous criminals.[/quote]


I can't remember what I was watching the other night, it was a show kinda like 60 minutes, but they were talking about how there is a prison that is only for pedophiles or maybe they said repeat offenders. I don't remember. I do know that pedophiles usually get beat up, raped, etc in prison because that is considered the "worst" crime.

On another note, to my knowledge, there are different "levels" of prisons and some are for much worse criminals, they have better security, tougher guards, and what-not. So to think that everyone gets put in the same place, to think that some psychotic person that has brutally slaughtered a hundred people gets put in the same living quarters with someone who committed grand theft auto is faulty thinking... to my understanding. I could be wrong.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1561132' date='Jun 6 2008, 01:53 PM']On another note, to my knowledge, there are different "levels" of prisons and some are for much worse criminals, they have better security, tougher guards, and what-not. So to think that everyone gets put in the same place, to think that some psychotic person that has brutally slaughtered a hundred people gets put in the same living quarters with someone who committed grand theft auto is faulty thinking... to my understanding. I could be wrong.[/quote] There is no escape proof prison. Prison populations are a mix of violent and non violent individuals. Prison guards are injured and attacked on a regular basis, regardless of "levels" and "toughness." Psychosis does not mark someone out for isolation from the rest of the prisoners, and it certainly doesn't mean guards are kept from contact with the individual.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1561132' date='Jun 6 2008, 01:53 PM']I can't remember what I was watching the other night, it was a show kinda like 60 minutes, but they were talking about how there is a prison that is only for pedophiles[/quote]All pedophiles should be executed, no exceptions.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1561150' date='Jun 6 2008, 02:05 PM']There is no escape proof prison. Prison populations are a mix of violent and non violent individuals. Prison guards are injured and attacked on a regular basis, regardless of "levels" and "toughness." Psychosis does not mark someone out for isolation from the rest of the prisoners, and it certainly doesn't mean guards are kept from contact with the individual.[/quote]


What are the statistics on escaping prisoners? I can't remember hearing about any recently, or actually ever, but I have a bad memory, so if you can find some statistics that say that prisoners escape on a more than almost-never basis, that would peak my interest.