Death Penalty

[Alycin]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1561219' date='Jun 6 2008, 03:17 PM']"I don't want to ruin his life over one incident." quote from juror dealing with a case involving the rape of a five year old girl. You think this is the only one out there who thinks like this? You apparently have a problem with understanding the number of people on this planet. You think that one half of one percent when you're dealing with a population of millions is "almost unheard of." There are millions of prisoners. If one out of 1000 escapes, assuming a population of 1 million, that's how many? There's a calculator on your computer.

Your mercy don't affect my daughter, you go on with it. Seeing as she's on this planet, I don't much care for your mercy. No offense, but my daughter means more to me than that of any scumbag criminal. I hope everyone goes to Heaven, but that don't mean I care to have them on this planet.[/quote]

You should know the error of appealing to emotions when debating. Once again, I never stated that something was "almost unheard of" (and by the way, putting words in others' mouths doesn't get you very far in trying to make your case in a debate, either. ) I stated a fact, and you apparently don't like it and keep trying to say that I said something that I never said.

There are 2,299,116 prisoners in prison right now. Only half of those prisoners are in prison for violent crimes. That would mean that even less of a percentage would be in for homicide, though I couldn't find that percentage. HOWEVER, the overall escape rate is one half of one percent IF (and that's a big if) the rate has stayed the same, and not followed the trend of decline. I couldn't find a statistic that says whether the escapees were all murderers, but I find that unlikely. So you're looking at a total number of escapees to be about 11 and a half thousand. That is not a small number, but nor is it a large number in the scheme of things, especially considering that it's probably far fewer than the total number of 11.5 thousand which are actually murderers, much less serial killers.

And as I've already stated before, the majority of the escapes were due to negligence or insufficient supervision.

[Alycin]

For the record--I don't know if "escapees" is the right word or not, it sounds funny.

[Maggyie]

I also have given instructions to my relatives that if I die in a violent way, I wish the responsible party would be spared. But the real test case is not if YOU are murdered, but one of your loved ones. After all, if I was brutally killed, I would be dead and no longer in crippling pyschological agony. My mom and dad could be "in principle" against the death penalty, but if me or my sister or brothers were murdered, I don't know what their emotional state would be. I wouldn't blame them for wanting the death penalty, even if, from Purgatory, I disagreed. Just like the old saying that funerals are more for the consolation of the living than for the benefit of the dead, some people say that capital punishment is meant mostly to satisfy the victim's family. Of course I would say it is a false satisfaction...

There was a similar situation here in Cleveland years ago. There was a lady reporter who used to do the editorals at the end of the 10 o'clock evening news, I forget which channel, but anyway a frequent topic was capital punishment. Oh how barbaric it is, blah blah blah. Then one day the lady's best friend was visciously slaughtered. The next evening when the reporter came on the air for her editorial she was sobbing hysterically and confessed that she was the world's biggest hypocrite, that she wanted the creep who did it to suffer horribly before being executed by the state. You never know how you are going to feel about it until you are actually there.

Edited June 6, 2008 by Maggie

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1560558' date='Jun 5 2008, 10:40 PM']I don't believe God was wrong in the Bible, nor that nearly 2000 years of Catholic teaching were wrong. God does not command people to do what is intrinsically immoral. Even the modern catechism acknowledges that the state has the right to execute criminals.

Trying to claim that executing a murderer is morally no different from abortion or other murders is plain wrong. As our Pope has stated:


QUOTE
Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/quote]

First off, this is what Cardinal Ratzinger said at a conference in a Q and A session. It wasn't from the CDF. It most certainly isn't from the Holy Father as an official stance of the Church. I tire of you trying to make this out to be more than it is.

[mod]Please do not take the Lord's Name in vain. -Raph[/mod]Soc you trot that line out every single time there is a discussion on the death penalty. You want to know why? There is NOTHING ELSE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR POSITION.

The preceding Holy Father made it clear that there was no logical reason to support the death penalty.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1561244' date='Jun 6 2008, 02:50 PM']You never know how you are going to feel about it until you are actually there.[/quote]


Amen. I had to see what happened to my friend's family. To her life was never the same after her 14 year old daughter was slaughtered the way she was. The murderer didn't just kill the 14 year old daughter...in many ways he killed my friend. She lost her faith, she lost her spirit...she lost so much of who she was...

And the guy is out...to perhaps destroy someone's elses life...I hope not....but I have to wonder....he's out there somewhere...

[Alycin]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1561248' date='Jun 6 2008, 03:52 PM']First off, this is what Cardinal Ratzinger said at a conference in a Q and A session. It wasn't from the CDF. It most certainly isn't from the Holy Father as an official stance of the Church. I tire of you trying to make this out to be more than it is.

[mod]don't take the Lord's name in vain please[/mod] you trot that line out every single time there is a discussion on the death penalty. You want to know why? There is NOTHING ELSE THAT SUPPORTS YOUR POSITION.

The preceding Holy Father made it clear that there was no logical reason to support the death penalty.[/quote]


It always saddens me to see people who are more loyal to their political party than they are to the Church. I used to be one of those people...well, before I was Catholic, anyway. I was more loyal to my political stance than I was to God. I tried to twist things so that they would fall in line with how I felt politically. It's a hard place to be in.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1561244' date='Jun 6 2008, 03:50 PM']You never know how you are going to feel about it until you are actually there.[/quote]

I can appreciate that. I have a 6 month old niece. I love her more than anything... I didn't know I had such a capacity to love until I met her. (My mom says if I think that's a lot, to wait until I have children of my own.) But I also don't think that when someone is in a state of grief, that their reasoning is clear. When someone whose child has been murdered wants to death penalty, it has probably got a lot more to do with revenge than anything else.

[dominicansoul]

"the nature and extent of the punishment [for capital crimes] must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not to go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity; in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society." John Paul II---[i]Gospel of Life[/i]

This is what I've spoken of. This is where I stand on executions of criminals. Only for the protection of society... sometimes murderers can't be rehabilitated. Sometimes, they are not looking for conversion. Sometimes they admit, they will easily kill again...

I am not for lining them up and shooting them up. I do believe that capital punishment, for the most part, is unnecessary. But in the cases I have spoken of, I don't have a problem with it...

[Alycin]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1561281' date='Jun 6 2008, 04:11 PM']"the nature and extent of the punishment [for capital crimes] must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not to go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity; in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society." John Paul II---[i]Gospel of Life[/i]

This is what I've spoken of. This is where I stand on executions of criminals. Only for the protection of society... sometimes murderers can't be rehabilitated. Sometimes, they are not looking for conversion. Sometimes they admit, they will easily kill again...

I am not for lining them up and shooting them up. I do believe that capital punishment, for the most part, is unnecessary. But in the cases I have spoken of, I don't have a problem with it...[/quote]


I do understand and I agree with you to an extent. But I still think it would be far better to fix the broken system, and then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

[Jesus_lol]

i like the idea of castrating offending pedophiles. like taking a loaded gun away froma murderer.
i believe that the death penalty is occasionally merited in special cases of extreme mental disorder, repeat offending brutal murder/rape cases. but my problem with the death penalty, is that if an innocent person was ever unjustly executed, that would be way too many, and that it should be abolished. sacrifice the few to get the many? no way, not for me.

and considering how flawed our systems are, with people being proven innocent after being incarcerated or waiting for death, it is impossible that there have been no innocent deaths.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1561305' date='Jun 6 2008, 03:23 PM']I do understand and I agree with you to an extent. But I still think it would be far better to fix the broken system, and then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.[/quote]


Yes. I wish all murderers would get life WITHOUT parole. That's the way it should be in every case, regardless of the circumstances of the murder. You take a life, you live the rest of yours locked up. Period.

[Alycin]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1561307' date='Jun 6 2008, 04:24 PM']but my problem with the death penalty, is that if an innocent person was ever unjustly executed, that would be way too many, and that it should be abolished. sacrifice the few to get the many? no way, not for me.[/quote]

Innocent people already have been killed under the death penalty, although I think it's probably a WAY less common occurrence now that we have DNA testing.

[Alycin]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1561312' date='Jun 6 2008, 04:27 PM']Yes. I wish all murderers would get life WITHOUT parole. That's the way it should be in every case, regardless of the circumstances of the murder. You take a life, you live the rest of yours locked up. Period.[/quote]


AGREED. It's sad, but, I'm willing to bet that they are so quick to try to parole people because of the money issue.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1561079' date='Jun 6 2008, 12:05 PM']I've said it before that people don't seem to care about the people inside the prisons being safe and they don't account for the actions neccessary to keep those inside the prisons safe. Violent offenders don't stop just because they are in prison.[/quote]

i know this is subjective, but my dad was a federal prison warden and it destroyed him - people do care, if only the families of the prisoners and the prison employees.

[quote name='Alycin' post='1561124' date='Jun 6 2008, 12:48 PM']... but my reasoning is, I want people to have as much time as possible to reconcile with God.[/quote]

Honestly, it's very hard for me to be objective on this topic, but i hope one day to internalize your reasoning.

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1561281' date='Jun 6 2008, 03:11 PM']"the nature and extent of the punishment [for capital crimes] must be carefully evaluated and decided upon, and ought not to go to the extreme of executing the offender except in cases of absolute necessity; in other words, when it would not be possible otherwise to defend society." John Paul II---[i]Gospel of Life[/i]

This is what I've spoken of. This is where I stand on executions of criminals. Only for the protection of society... sometimes murderers can't be rehabilitated. Sometimes, they are not looking for conversion. Sometimes they admit, they will easily kill again...

I am not for lining them up and shooting them up. I do believe that capital punishment, for the most part, is unnecessary. But in the cases I have spoken of, I don't have a problem with it...[/quote]

iawtp, but again, i see it as an ideal for my heart to live up to.

[StColette]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1561335' date='Jun 6 2008, 04:54 PM']i know this is subjective, but my dad was a federal prison warden and it destroyed him - people do care, if only the families of the prisoners and the prison employees.[/quote]

Sometimes the families don't even care. In high school youth group we visited a youth correctional facility on a regular as a means of outreach. Some of those kids were in their for horrible crimes, some of the kids were as young as 7. Most of their families have disowned them.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='StColette' post='1561340' date='Jun 6 2008, 04:00 PM']Sometimes the families don't even care. In high school youth group we visited a youth correctional facility on a regular as a means of outreach. Some of those kids were in their for horrible crimes, some of the kids were as young as 7. Most of their families have disowned them.[/quote]


Yes, very true. But i also remember visiting my dad at his penitentiary on days when inmates' family members were lined up and waiting to visit. Still subjective, i know, but i'm just saying that there are families behind the inmates and employees who do care a lot about what's going on inside.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1560943' date='Jun 6 2008, 12:11 PM'][/color]
You sidestepped my question, so I'll break it down into simpler yes-or-no questions.

1) Do you believe that the catechism is wrong in saying that the death penalty is virtually unnecessary now that we have the means to restrain criminals without taking their lives?

2) Do you disagree with JPII that the death penalty is now cruel and unusual because of the reasons stated in question one?[/quote]

The word "virtually' always renders a statement meaningless. The truth is we do not have the means to restrain criminals to protect the other inmates, the guards, or anyone else, hence the murder and rape rate in prison. The Catechism is referring to an ideal world, we are not there yet. And no I do not think the death penalty is cruel or unusual punishment, life in solitary confinement is.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1561248' date='Jun 6 2008, 04:52 PM']The preceding Holy Father made it clear that there was no logical reason to support the death penalty.[/quote]
Sorry but the defense and protection of society is a very logical reason.

[Alycin]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1561345' date='Jun 6 2008, 05:18 PM']Sorry but the defense and protection of society is a very logical reason.[/quote]


For my own personal reasons I will assume that JPII knows better than me.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Alycin' post='1561273' date='Jun 6 2008, 05:06 PM']But I also don't think that when someone is in a state of grief, that their reasoning is clear. When someone whose child has been murdered wants to death penalty, it has probably got a lot more to do with revenge than anything else.[/quote]

You are right that support for the death penalty is mostly rooted in emotional response. When hot stuff says there is no logical reason to support the death penalty he gets pretty close, although I wouldn't go so far as to say "NO logical" reason. I think that we who oppose the DP have a major blind spot here. We have a huge pile of facts about capital punishment. The statistics show that the death penalty is not a deterrent. The statistics show that innocent people have been sentenced. The statistics show that poor people and minorities are more likely to be sentenced. And so on.

What we miss is that the PRO-death penalty argument is not really about facts and figures, it is about hearts and souls. What it comes down to is that a wound has been made in a family so deep and so painful that some people feel that execution is the only response that would come even close to being adequate. When Catholics and others defend the death penalty, usually their real intention (perhaps unconscious) is to "defend" the family of the victim and others who are experiencing terrible hurt as a result of violent crime. Over-turning a death sentence or protesting an execution can feel like an attack on the victim, a way of saying that the deceased was not "worth" resorting to this kind of punishment, or a minimization of the family's pain.

Of course people who argue against the death penalty don't mean to attack any one. But instead of recognizing this emotional reality we hit them with another stack of figures about deterrence. The key to converting people to a more fully pro-life position on the DP is to recognize where they are coming from and work from there. We need to show victims that we recognize the agony of losing someone to violence, and that we are not "choosing sides" against them. It is not sinful for them to be angry, to feel lost or hopeless, or to experience a desire for revenge. These are all normal emotions. We have to prove by our words and by our actions that the true way to "defend" victims and families is to help make them whole by leading them down the path of forgiveness.