Death Penalty

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='1557491' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:02 AM']an eye for an eye would make the world go blind.[/quote]


you arent really listening to what people are saying, are you?

[Alycin]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1557537' date='Jun 4 2008, 01:28 PM']you arent really listening to what people are saying, are you?[/quote]


Obviously not, since the quote that I made huge is saying that...
[size=3]
The church can think of only extremely rare, if not non-existent, reasons that the death penalty should be implied.[/size]





and yet they took from that, that I said we should kill them because they can't reconcile with God.

[rckllnknny]

no but now i do.

Edited June 4, 2008 by rckllnknny

[CrossCuT]

[size=1]I believe that in extreme cases the Death Penalty is acceptable.
[/size]

[CatherineM]

I don't personally believe that we should be executing people, but I do understand that the Catechism allows for it is certain limited circumstances. Having been witness to an execution in 1989 that went badly, I can't imagine that I will ever be comfortable with the idea. I like how John Paul viewed it from conception to natural death, and what I witnessed was far from natural. I understand that makes me in the extreme minority on phatmass, and I'm not saying the church doesn't allow members to believe in the death penalty. I'm just saying that I don't, and can't.

[geauxsaints26]

[quote]Pope John Paul II, health concerns or not, has not lost his charisma. For 30 hours he was among us, January 26-27, on a stopover pastoral visit en route from Mexico City to Rome. During this brief, seventh papal visit to the United States, he not only exchanged the vibrancy of faith, but also delivered a clear and challenging message to America.

The pope implored his audiences that protecting the dignity of life is America's deepest calling. In five speeches he returned repeatedly to the theme, decrying abortion, racism, poverty and euthanasia, unambiguously proclaiming the death penalty as "cruel and unnecessary." He persuaded Missouri Governor Mel Carnahan to commute the death sentence of Darrell Mease, who had originally been scheduled for execution on the very day of the papal visit. Himself a doctor of philosophy, the pope called upon Americans to remember the philosophical foundations of our nation: protection of the individual in a free society. [url="http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Apr1999/feature1.asp#F6"]Link[/url][/quote]

[quote]"Increasingly, our society looks to...increased reliance on the death penalty to deal with crime. We are tragically turning to violence in the search for quick and easy answers to complex human problems. A society which destroys its children, abandons its old and relies on vengeance fails fundamental moral tests....

"We cannot teach that killing is wrong by killing....This cycle of violence diminishes all of us—especially our children."

—Confronting a Culture of Violence:
A Catholic Framework for Action
(U.S. Catholic bishops, November 1994)[/quote]

[Socrates]

Apparently, God has no problem with lawfully executing murderers:

"Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God." (Genesis 9:6)

"He that striketh a man with a will to kill him, shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:12)

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#article2"]Summa Theologica: Article 2. Whether it is lawful to kill sinners?[/url]
[quote]I answer that, As stated above (Article 1), it is lawful to kill dumb animals, in so far as they are naturally directed to man's use, as the imperfect is directed to the perfect. Now every part is directed to the whole, as imperfect to perfect, wherefore every part is naturally for the sake of the whole. For this reason we observe that if the health of the whole body demands the excision of a member, through its being decayed or infectious to the other members, it will be both praiseworthy and advantageous to have it cut away. Now every individual person is compared to the whole community, as part to whole. [b]Therefore if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and advantageous that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good, since "a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump" (1 Corinthians 5:6).[/b][/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='1557474' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:57 AM']okay where in the bible does it say kill people. in psalms or proverbs???[/quote]
There's quite a list of sins to be punished by death in Leviticus.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/bible/lev020.htm"]Leviticus: Chapter 20[/url]

[Brother Adam]

If you give a scale of 0 - 100, 0 being utterly against the death penalty and 100 being utterly for the death penalty up until a month ago I would have put myself at about a 90 on that scale. After listening to Russell Ford's testimony though (He is still serving a 25 year prison sentence) about the death penalty and conversions to the Catholic faith I would put myself now at a 50. He has some powerful points to make and uses all real life examples the perspective of someone who is a convert to Catholicism himself and now runs a Catholic non-profit ministry to prisoners from prison.

[goldenchild17]

I am fully in support of the death penalty but I do believe one should be spared if they have demonstrated full repentance. I don't know that guy's story, but I think that might apply to him.

[White Knight]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

Page 605 for reference.

[b]2267 [color="#FF0000"]"[u]Assuming that the guility party's idenity and responsiblity have been fully determinated, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penality, if that is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressors. If however, non lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safetly from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.[/u][/color] [u] [color="#0000FF"][u]Today, in fact as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself- the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically non-existent."[/u][/color] [/u]"[/b]


Hopefully this presents a answer that is sufficent to you.


I used to be very strongly pro captial punishment, however, out of patient and long agurements, and explainations, I fully understand the agurements now on both sides of the table, while they both offer their legitimate valid points, I evenually have changed my mind, I'm now Anti-captial Punishment.

3 reasons
1) A persons possible Salvation is greater than any other small with in the moment proposes, to grant a person the chance for redemption is something I think God always does, even to the worst of sinners, and We sould give people the chance to turn from the path of eternal condemnation, God doesn't Send people to Hell, We send ourselves.

2) You cannot be a hippocrit on Life issues, you are ethier against it or not, period.

3) Issues like the Death Penality and Abortion are closely related, the difference is, your killing a much older child of somebody, but ethier way its the taking of a human life.


God Bless, Pax Christi.
White Knight

Edited June 5, 2008 by White Knight

[Norseman82]

[quote name='rckllnknny' post='1557439' date='Jun 4 2008, 12:48 PM']but we would literally be doing the same thing that was illegal for them.[/quote]

No, because the murderer's victim is innocent but the murderer is guilty. There is a difference between innocent and guilty people that cannot be forgotten.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='White Knight' post='1558855' date='Jun 4 2008, 10:08 PM']Hopefully this presents a answer that is sufficent to you.[/quote]

was that in response to me? If so, I don't accept the CCC. (just for clarification).

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='White Knight' post='1558855' date='Jun 4 2008, 10:08 PM']1) A persons possible Salvation is greater than any other small with in the moment proposes, to grant a person the chance for redemption is something I think God always does, even to the worst of sinners, and We sould give people the chance to turn from the path of eternal condemnation, God doesn't Send people to Hell, We send ourselves.[/quote]

Salvation is of the utmost importance always, but pre-Vat theology says that the person should be offered a chance to repent, and then if he refuses he can still be put to death anyways. Similar to the spiritual death. All souls are given a chance to repent but if they don't, then they are going to hell.

[quote]2) You cannot be a hippocrit on Life issues, you are ethier against it or not, period.[/quote]

Then I guess I should amend my pro-life statement. I am pro-those who have a right to life, meaning I believe that some people (murderers in particular) have lost their right to life by killing another person. This is also pre-vat theology. Aborted babies have not given up any of their rights. Murderers are born with these rights but give them up when they kill another life.

[quote]3) Issues like the Death Penality and Abortion are closely related, the difference is, your killing a much older child of somebody, but ethier way its the taking of a human life.[/quote]


I have to respectfully disagree. The issue is whether or not one has the right to life. I believe one loses the right to life when he kills another person. An aborted baby has never done anything wrong, a murderer concedes his right to life when he murders. I suppose this is just a difference between pre and post vatican II theologies, but that's how I see it.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1558919' date='Jun 4 2008, 10:28 PM']No, because the murderer's victim is innocent but the murderer is guilty. There is a difference between innocent and guilty people that cannot be forgotten.[/quote]

[Alycin]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1558561' date='Jun 4 2008, 09:51 PM']Apparently, God has no problem with lawfully executing murderers:

"Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God." (Genesis 9:6)

"He that striketh a man with a will to kill him, shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:12)

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3064.htm#article2"]Summa Theologica: Article 2. Whether it is lawful to kill sinners?[/url][/quote]


So you don't like what the catechism has to say about the need for the death penalty being practically non-existant, or what PJ2 said about it being cruel and unusual?

[Alycin]

[quote name='White Knight' post='1558855' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:08 PM']2) You cannot be a hippocrit on Life issues, you are ethier against it or not, period.[/quote]

[Alycin]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1558919' date='Jun 4 2008, 11:28 PM']No, because the murderer's victim is innocent but the murderer is guilty. There is a difference between innocent and guilty people that cannot be forgotten.[/quote]


Only by society's standards.

If someone were to come in my room and kill me right now, I can assure you that I would not be some sinless innocent victim. Does that mean that it would be justified? No. But only because [u][b]man does not have the right to take another man's life.[/b][/u] Not because I deserve to live more than the next guy on the street.

IMO, only God has the right to take life away from His children.


((This is where some people would get into the, 'well what if someone murders an innocent child/baby?)) And then I would agree that someone who is not innocent killed someone who was--but two wrongs do not make a right.

We have the capacity to keep murderers away from society without killing them. We should do so, plain and simple.

The whole, "Wah wah wah, I don't wanna spend my money on taxes to keep murderers alive" complaint is the furthest thing from pro-life I've ever heard, so if you're gonna go there, know that I won't accept it as a valid argument.

[N/A Gone]

Not researching (this is gonna get me in trouble) I think a pro-life POV would not allow the taking of a life. I would think that because we are not given the ability to create/give life that we would not have the authority to take a life.

In that regard the death-penalty is cruel and unusual because of the amount of time a person spends on death row. If you are gonna kill him, do it tommorow. The waiting is torture.

I always thought that exile is a better option. If you do not want to obey the rules of the society than do not live in or off of the society.

There is an exception, and that is the just-war situation. (Spoken as a former soldier who has had to take lives) Where the life is taken in order to protect the innocent lives. This is allowed in sorrow and I think the same could be taken in the death penalty. If there was some reason that the person was still causing so much harm and we were unable to contain him, then perhaps death is the only option. But I cannot think of a situation where that would be valid. I would think putting them in a cell bythemselves with a couple choice books is always a better option. Perhaps he could have a change of heart. As catholics our goal is the soul. Not getting him back into civil society. So if you off a guy there is no chance for his soul to change. As long as he is alive there is hope.

Also, I often think the death penalty is used as a form of revenge and that is wrong.

[CatherineM]

My dad was a soldier that also had to take lives, and I asked him once if he regretted it. He said he regretted it was necessary. When my life was in danger, I did defend myself. If someone today threatened myself or my family, I'd like to think I could take a life if it was necessary, but I wouldn't want to do it. I guess one of my biggest problems with the death penalty is that it doesn't seem necessary in a society with adequate prisons. The people advocating for it, enforcing it, vehemently pursuing it, and conducting it, seem to really want to carry the executions out. We shouldn't want to kill with such passion. When we find ourselves in a position of really needing to take a human life, it should be done with pain and sorrow, not cheering and rejoicing.