Catholicism And Martial Arts

[Nihil Obstat]

I already have my own opinions on this, but I'd love to hear yours.

Do you think that a practicing, orthodox Catholic can also be involved in practicing martial arts (like karate)? Do you see any sort of conflict between the morals of the Church and the training present in martial arts, which prepares the practitioner (in theory) for a combat situation?

Mostly I want discussion here. After some people have made their opinions known, then I'll get involved and get my opinion in.


Please comment if you vote, thanks. Edited June 24, 2008 by Nihil Obstat

[Archaeology cat]

I personally don't see a conflict. Being prepared does not necessarily mean you are going to use that knowledge to attack someone, but it could help in self-defense. I used to take Tae Kwon Do, just for fun, and didn't see anything inherently at odds with my faith. I wasn't Catholic at the time, either, though.

[Nihil Obstat]

I would love to respond, but I really want to wait until more people comment.
I was hoping there would be a bit more response though. Oh well.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1581677' date='Jun 24 2008, 09:40 PM']I would love to respond, but I really want to wait until more people comment.
I was hoping there would be a bit more response though. Oh well.[/quote]
Give it some time - I'm sure more will respond.

[homeschoolmom]

I have my opinions. I will share them with you when you share yours.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1581692' date='Jun 24 2008, 03:52 PM']I have my opinions. I will share them with you when you share yours. [/quote]
Aw, that's not fun.
I was going to wait until discussion was already underway so that I couldn't accuse myself of affecting or biasing any of it.

[homeschoolmom]

Okay... I think your poll is a little flawed. I think if there had been a "there needn't be any conflict between the Church and martial arts" choice, that's what I would have voted for.

I think that some studios probably do conflict with the Church, but that needn't be the case. The studio we attend is about as Catholic as can be without actually being religious-- if that makes sense.

[Nihil Obstat]

Good point, although it looks like I can't edit it any longer.
I guess I'm talking about the idea of martial arts in general as a practice, so not necessarily any specifics about different clubs.

[homeschoolmom]

Okay... I was thinking you were asking if some of the Eastern philosophy etc were in conflict. Our studio doesn't go there at all.

If you mean being able to fight.... well, hmmm.... I guess I will defer to the idea that I like knowing that my child would be able to protect himself (he's small for his age) if he were attacked, though that was not our main reason for getting him into it.

Our main reasons for letting him take it (his choice) was for the exercise (being hsers, I count it as his "gym.") and for the ability to set and meet goals. He also works with the other kids etc.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1581938' date='Jun 24 2008, 05:46 PM']Okay... I was thinking you were asking if some of the Eastern philosophy etc were in conflict. Our studio doesn't go there at all.

If you mean being able to fight.... well, hmmm.... I guess I will defer to the idea that I like knowing that my child would be able to protect himself (he's small for his age) if he were attacked, though that was not our main reason for getting him into it.

Our main reasons for letting him take it (his choice) was for the exercise (being hsers, I count it as his "gym.") and for the ability to set and meet goals. He also works with the other kids etc.[/quote]
Cool, cool. No, I wasn't talking about Eastern philosophy. I don't think that's evident in most clubs in North America and probably Europe as well.
I was just curious if there are any people around that think that learning how to fight is in essence contrary to Christianity.
I don't see it that way myself. I'm a black belt in Shotokan karate (just recently!) and the way I see it, you're learning more how to protect human dignity and respect that just 'learning how to fight'.
This isn't as fun if no one disagrees though.

[Noel's angel]

Karate isn't about preparing for combat. I have my black belt in Wado Ryu, and I also taught it for several years and the emphasis was never on preparing karateka for a fight.
It depends if it is authentic martial arts training. For example, many kung fu, taekowndo and ju-jitsu clubs train to win competitions, and their training involves a lot of aggression because they do not understand what it is they are doing.
I was taught by a World Master, and he made sure we all knew exactly what it was all about. I had to write an essay about the tradition of martial arts for my black belt.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1581961' date='Jun 24 2008, 06:01 PM']Karate isn't about preparing for combat. I have my black belt in Wado Ryu, and I also taught it for several years and the emphasis was never on preparing karateka for a fight.
It depends if it is authentic martial arts training. For example, many kung fu, taekowndo and ju-jitsu clubs train to win competitions, and their training involves a lot of aggression because they do not understand what it is they are doing.
I was taught by a World Master, and he made sure we all knew exactly what it was all about. I had to write an essay about the tradition of martial arts for my black belt.[/quote]
Well... to some extent.
...but you can't say that [b]nothing[/b] about karate has to do with preparing for combat. What it comes down to is that if you need to, you're able to defend yourself.
I also don't like sport karate, and that sort of thing. I think it defeats the purpose... but either way, different subject.
It puts things in perspective if you read the dojo kun.
[quote]Seek perfection of character
Be faithful
Endeavour
Respect others
Refrain from violent behavior[/quote]

[homeschoolmom]

I would have to agree with both of you. The training to win competitions was not even on our radar. For us, it's about self-defense and, I suppose if the opportunity presented itself, to defend another (and as I mentioned, fitness, etc).

What was interesting, though, as I was typing my previous reply, I was trying to guess what you were aiming at in the original post. Jesus does talk of turning the other cheek. However, if the guy who had been robbed in the parable of the Good Samaritan had been able to roundkick the robber in the head, I think Jesus would probably have approved.

[Noel's angel]

Well, karate doesn't prepare you for combat like a driving test prepares you for taking a car onto the roads.
Obviously, karate does prepare people (if necessary) to defend themselves in certain situations, but if you have it in your head that it is simply about preparing for combat, you have been mislead somewhere.

Wado-Ryu, for example, translates as 'way of peace', so there should be nothing in it to promote violence.

[havok579257]

Depends on what you define martial arts for. Many people consider it having nothing to do fighting. Itg is about training ones body in discipline.

Like take for example me, I am into weightlifting. I have been into it for years and years. Because of my training, my arms are like 19 inches and my chest is like 53 inches. If I happened to get in a fight, would my weightlifting help me? Absolutly it would. Having that much extra muscle on you will make you quite stronger than the avergae person. Although here is the thing, my goal with weightlifting was never to get bigger and stronger so I could beat someone up easier in a fight. That just happens to be possible because of my traning.

It all comes down to intent. If the sole purpose in learning martial arts is so you can beat people up in a fight, then that's a different story. Although if the purpose is to training your body and compete in supervized compotitions, then there is nothing wrong with it. Its all about intent and why you are doing something.

Just because I own a SUV that could crush a small; compact does not make me evil for owning a SUV as long as my intent is not to injure people. Its all about intent.

[Noel's angel]

Agreed.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1581997' date='Jun 24 2008, 06:19 PM']Obviously, karate does prepare people (if necessary) to defend themselves in certain situations, but if you have it in your head that it is simply about preparing for combat, you have been mislead somewhere.[/quote]
Oh no, of course not. I've been at it for ten years, so I like to think that I know what it's all about. I wouldn't want to say that 'preparing to defend yourself' is a secondary focus... but it would be entirely wrong to say that it's the primary concept.
The way I like to look at it is that it gives you the tools necessary to first of all avoid a fight, but at the end of it all, if a fight happens anyway, you're prepared to be able to defend your own dignity. (talking dignity of course being human dignity, rather than pride)
I mean, it really isn't karate with all the focus on one of the two aspects. Focus entirely on peace and inner harmony, and it's meditation. Focus entirely on combat and you're a street fighter. I think the focus is on both, with neither being 'more important', to look at it in a limited way, but with both defining the other.
Just to relate this back to PM, it might be like Jesus' divinity as well as humanity. He was both, and in the same idea, karate has both aspects (peace and combat, not divinity and humanity) with both complimenting and completing the other rather than subtracting.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1582014' date='Jun 24 2008, 06:26 PM']Just because I own a SUV that could crush a small; compact does not make me evil for owning a SUV as long as my intent is not to injure people. Its all about intent.[/quote]

You mean that's not what they're for?

[Noel's angel]

btw, when I said 'you', I didn't mean you personally.

I agree. Even take the name 'martial arts' and you get the two elements.
The point I was trying to make is that if dojos are producing people who are using their skills for harmful purposes (which more and more are), then that would be contrary to Christ's teaching, but as havok said, if the intention is not to harm, but to grow in discipline etc. then it can't be contrary to the teaching of the Church.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1582036' date='Jun 24 2008, 06:34 PM']btw, when I said 'you', I didn't mean you personally.

I agree. Even take the name 'martial arts' and you get the two elements.
The point I was trying to make is that if dojos are producing people who are using their skills for harmful purposes (which more and more are), then that would be contrary to Christ's teaching, but as havok said, if the intention is not to harm, but to grow in discipline etc. then it can't be contrary to the teaching of the Church.[/quote]
We're all in agreement then.
Let's start a Phatmass school of karate.
You know what is in a lot of ways worse than the schools training specifically to fight? The ones that just exist for the money, that promote kids to black belts when they're twelve, and a person gets their black belt in about 4 years. Those make me so mad... Ha[i][/i]te em. They call them McDojos, belt factories, and Bullshido.