Homosexuals And Our Attitude Towards Them

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1598297' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:44 PM']Yea, sorry my sarcasm doesn't come through the internet...[/quote]

Its ok, happens to the best of us. But yes, I knew you where being sarcastic, but it was Doctrine not Dogma, and the Catholic Encyclopedia is a trustworthy and is a Church backed source and it states that there are degrees of punishment based on guilt and that, that belief is Catholic Doctrine. Does it prove without a doubt? No, but it does add much credibility to the thought.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1598297' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:44 PM']I'm surprised people jumping on jamie here, considering he is the only one posting (other than st. col) that actually has a degree in this...

Edit: And Apo...[/quote]

People are 'jumping' on the guy because some of his comments have been well a wee bit snobbish.

[Justin86]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597298' date='Jul 11 2008, 10:34 AM']I think you're overreacting[/quote]

Come on Jamie! Everyone loves a good waterboarding! I know, let's hold a waterboarding party on phatmass! Awesome!

[friendofJPII]

What school does hot stuff have a theology degree from?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1598530' date='Jul 12 2008, 09:02 AM']What school does hot stuff have a theology degree from?[/quote]
From the QandA phorum:

"hot stuff aka Jim Fellows has degrees in Theology and Music from the University of St Thomas and a MA in Psychology from St Mary's University. . . ."

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=7400"][u]Who Answers These Questions[/u][/url]

[lilac_angel]

Thank you, rkwright and Aloysius, for the info.

I've seen indulgences taking care of 7 years of penance.. they sure were more severe with penances back then..

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1598306' date='Jul 11 2008, 10:06 PM']indulgences measured in time refer to th equivalent amount of time you would have spent in penance in the early Church when penances were much more severe. I have been told by various priests that if, under the direction of a confessor, you wish to continue measuring your partial indulgences in that way and properly understand it, there's no problem. I personally like to do this because it gives me a more concrete understanding of the indulgences which I attempt to recieve.[/quote]

Cool..

[picchick]

[quote name='XIX' post='1598287' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:53 PM']And as 17 others have already mentioned, you can commit a mortal sin and still end up in purgatory, provided you don't die with the mortal sin on your soul.

"But according to Church teaching, people in purgatory did not commit a mortal sin!" ...is a false statement. I'm assuming you just misspoke and were not actually trying to promote heresy, but you have to at least admit your error before you go on about how you're quoting Church teaching and everybody else is just giving opinion.[/quote]

I believe he meant that those in purgatory did not commit a mortal sin that is still on their soul not that they NEVER committed a mortal sin.

[KnightofChrist]

[i]According to the councils of Lyon and Florence formally defined that people in hell are punished by unequal punishments. The conclusion which is drawn from this is that there are levels in hell, which holds the degree of certain of sententia communior. Ludwig Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma discusses it on p. 482. I hope this helps. God bless.

[url="http://www.sensustraditionis.org/"]Fr. Ripperger[/url][/i]


----------------------

Anyone disagree? This would be doctrinal and dogmatic proof would it not?

Edited July 13, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[XIX]

[quote name='picchick' post='1598751' date='Jul 12 2008, 05:00 PM']I believe he meant that those in purgatory did not commit a mortal sin that is still on their soul not that they NEVER committed a mortal sin.[/quote]
I figured he meant that, but he sure didn't say that. And if you are going to pick nits the way he has been doing, you really really need to get your own details straight as well.

[johnnydigit]

OT on indulgences and purgatory, who really cares what you get as long as you get to heaven eventually? why should one care about indulgences really, x amount of years is still nothing compared to eternity, is it not?

"Read Me Or Rue It...How To Avoid Purgatory" is a small booklet that has some interesting private revelations on purgatory.. that nuns have spent 60 years in it even after tons of prayer from their living sisters.. that one second of it is worst than the worst conceivable pain on earth..

here's a different one "Read Me or Rue It by Fr. Paul O'Sullivan" [url="http://www.sufferingsouls.com/part3.htm"]http://www.sufferingsouls.com/part3.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Purgatry/Readme.htm"]http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Purgatry/Readme.htm[/url]

[friendofJPII]

Hell is scary.

Purgatory is scary as well, but admists all the suffering we know that these souls are very, very, happy. So that's a consolation, I guess, because I think I'm going to be there awhile. I remember Our Lady told Jacinta that one of her friends was going to be in purgatory "until the end of time..." We all know everyone's question is, "What did she do??" What could a sheep girl do on a farm in 1917? And whatever she did, it couldn't be as bad as what people are doing today. I have also read that it's God's intention for us to suffer greatly on earth, so our time in purgatory will short or nill. So I'm rather confused of God...is it his will to alleviate our sufferings, or give us more so that we may enter heaven? I accept the teaching of the Church on this but the concept is very confusing to me

Sorry for going off topic, maybe I should start a new thread on this.---friendofjpii

Edited July 13, 2008 by friendofJPII

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1599076' date='Jul 13 2008, 02:40 AM']OT on indulgences and purgatory, who really cares what you get as long as you get to heaven eventually? why should one care about indulgences really, x amount of years is still nothing compared to eternity, is it not?

"Read Me Or Rue It...How To Avoid Purgatory" is a small booklet that has some interesting private revelations on purgatory.. that nuns have spent 60 years in it even after tons of prayer from their living sisters.. that one second of it is worst than the worst conceivable pain on earth..[/quote]

I read Read Me or Rue It. Why would you care about avoiding Purgatory if you get to heaven eventually?.. same basic logic, in a way..

I think you answered your own question, due to the horrible suffering many Church faithful/saints have either directly seen or speculated about Purgatory and/or our plain desire to see God as soon as we can... i think many would want to try to aim for getting to Heaven ASAP, if they can't get there immediately. anyway, the church gave us the option of caring about indulgences; the church is who cared about giving indulgences for earthly penances for potentially speeding up our journey to the gates in the first place; the Pope is keen on offering them, so obviously the pope cares about giving the faithful options...again, it's not years out of purgatory; and we can mainly view them as partial or plenary now, helping mitigate the earthly/temporal punishments we've acquired via our sins if we're fully repentant of the sin and fully trying to avoid doing it again. some humans are helped by a tangible "figure" or more concrete idea of reparation for their sins they can go off, some more real idea of progress in the right direction, and i think ultimately this can make it even more of an incentive not to sin.

it also is nice in the "giving hope" department. it increases prayer and devotional practices. also pilgrimages to holy sites. bottom line, the Church offered this beautiful thing to us, and you can not care about a certain tradition of the Church if you choose, but i don't why one would criticize others for having an interest in it or caring about what the Church's teachings are on it.

Edited July 13, 2008 by lilac_angel

[HisChildForever]

Do we know [b]exactly[/b] what Purgatory is like? I have heard over a handful of different interpretations. Should I believe that it's just a waiting place, or a place with the fires of Hell (however, only temporary), or a place of general suffering without the fire....It's confusing.

[Jaime]

[quote name='XIX' post='1598286' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:47 PM']Jamie, you really haven't. All you have said is that the Church doesn't explicitly state that there are varying degrees of Hell. Well guess what? The Church also hasn't stated that there aren't. They don't say either way. So you really need to get off of you "I'm the only guy offering Church teaching" high horse.[/quote]
People are stating there are various levels of hell as if its fact. If people want to say "Hey you know I think Dante was on to something" fine, I have no problem with that.

[quote name='XIX' post='1598287' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:53 PM']And as 17 others have already mentioned, you can commit a mortal sin and still end up in purgatory, provided you don't die with the mortal sin on your soul.

"But according to Church teaching, people in purgatory did not commit a mortal sin!" ...is a false statement. I'm assuming you just misspoke and were not actually trying to promote heresy, but you have to at least admit your error before you go on about how you're quoting Church teaching and everybody else is just giving opinion.[/quote]

I was a bit quick on typing but what I said certainly doesn't even come close to qualifying for heresy. You might be pissed at me (and I'm not sure why) but don't throw words around if you don't know the full implication of those words.


[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1598349' date='Jul 12 2008, 12:27 AM']i didn't know that and i respect that, but it doesn't necessarily justify his claims. it also doesn't justify his poor attitude and lack of charity.

given his credibility, i'd still be surprised if anyone retracts their statements because of it. he may know what he's talking about *in his mind*, but it may be that his wording is not in agreement with what the rest of us are talking about. which is why i advised he take a breather, maybe re-read the thread to see where the conflict is coming from our perspective and salvage what's left. i think that's what a teacher might do if he is in conflict with his entire class.. (back down his ego for a second and consider why his *teaching* is backfiring.)

given what's happened, i guess i should approach every discussion as if everyone has a degree, just as we should receive everyone as if they were Jesus..[/quote]

I don't know where I'm belng less than charitable. Here's what I've said

A mortal sin is a mortal sin (same ultimate punishment)
The Church does not teach that there are levels of hell (as far as I know, that's fact)
Homosexual acts is a grave sin against chastity and is at the same level as masturbation and premarital sex (catechism)

I'm not sure why you guys are getting all out of sorts at me. I've been uncharitable before there have been threads shut down because I was so uncharitable. I know what it looks like, (Lil Red will back me up on that) and the only time I've been uncharitable in this thread was when I told Justin he was overreacting. Other than that I've only said

"Show me in Church doctrine where it teaches that" Because people have a tendency to talk about "logic" and "what makes sense" as if that was enough to be Church doctrine. And its not.

If that's uncharitable then my life is one big uncharitable moment. The argument that friendofJPII was making is that some sins are more grievous than others. While that is the case between venial and mortal, you lose ground when you are just talking mortal sins.

Hell is the total absence of God folks.

WHICH ALL OF THIS IS MISSING MY ORIGINAL POINT.

Which is this, as far as sin goes, if there are Phatmassers who are struggling with premarital sex, pornography or masturbation, these phatmassers are in the same boat as those who may be struggling with homosexual acts.

The reality is this (and this will make a few folks uncomfortable)

Chastity is chastity. You aren't mostly chaste, you sin against chastity and guess what, you aren't chaste anymore. There aren't levels there aren't degrees. Its pretty black and white.

So as in my original post (which by now is 35 pages away) I was agreeing with socalscout that yes, perhaps if we are going to be talking about chastity (which we should) that there may have been an over abundance of threads on homosexuality.

Why this has gone off on an ad nauseum of posts about levels of hell just kind of proves my point that most people will talk about ANYTHING else besides what impacts them personally as far as sin

[Aloysius]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1598884' date='Jul 12 2008, 09:00 PM'][i]According to the councils of Lyon and Florence formally defined that people in hell are punished by unequal punishments. The conclusion which is drawn from this is that there are levels in hell, which holds the degree of certain of sententia communior. Ludwig Ott in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma discusses it on p. 482. I hope this helps. God bless.

[url="http://www.sensustraditionis.org/"]Fr. Ripperger[/url][/i]
----------------------

Anyone disagree? This would be doctrinal and dogmatic proof would it not?[/quote]
hot stuff, do you disagree with this?

I don't pretend that everything that comes out of my mouth is directly Church teaching... but I do propose everything I say that I'm certain about as if it were fact... I would think anyone would be able to tell that everything I say that is not backed up is just my opinion, though now we have provided Church teaching backing up what we were saying thanks to KnightofChrist and Fr. Ripperger.

in any event, the Church certainly doesn't teach chastity is black and white (that is quite absurd and I've never gotten that impression from anything the Church has said, please show anywhere that the Church treats all sins against chastity on an equal level) and there certainly are varying degrees of gravity amongst mortal sins. now of course when dealing with your own personal sins, treat them as if they are the worst ones because you do not have any idea about the culpability level of anyone other than yourself and for all you know everyone else could way less culpable for what they do (even if what they do is worse in levels of gravity)... but when talking about them objectively it is important to make distinctions between what sins are more or less grave.

[Apotheoun]

The Byzantine tradiion also accepts the idea that there are varying degrees of suffering in hell, just as there are varying degrees of glory in heaven. The doctrine of [i]epektasis[/i] (i.e., infinite stretching into God) is bound up with this idea.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1599237' date='Jul 13 2008, 03:35 PM']hot stuff, do you disagree with this?

I don't pretend that everything that comes out of my mouth is directly Church teaching... but I do propose everything I say that I'm certain about as if it were fact... I would think anyone would be able to tell that everything I say that is not backed up is just my opinion, though now we have provided Church teaching backing up what we were saying thanks to KnightofChrist and Fr. Ripperger.[/quote]

I don't know. I don't remember everything from all the councils but if its true, great. Honestly I don't really care either way. But actual quotes from the councils would be beneficial since a cursory look at the results of those don't talk about hell at all.


[quote]in any event, the Church certainly doesn't teach chastity is black and white (that is quite absurd and I've never gotten that impression from anything the Church has said, please show anywhere that the Church treats all sins against chastity on an equal level) and there certainly are varying degrees of gravity amongst mortal sins. now of course when dealing with your own personal sins, treat them as if they are the worst ones because you do not have any idea about the culpability level of anyone other than yourself and for all you know everyone else could way less culpable for what they do (even if what they do is worse in levels of gravity)... but when talking about them objectively it is important to make distinctions between what sins are more or less grave.[/quote]

That I do care about. I've already quoted the Catechism that lists out sins gravely contrary to chastity. I don't feel like doing it again. But the Church doesn't list "more grave" or "less grave" she lists grave. Now I will say make this modification in my stance. There is a degree of difference between spiritual mortal sins and carnal. But I have yet to find anyplace that teaches there is a difference in gravity in carnal mortal sins and the Catechism would certainly reflect it if it did. But feel free to prove me wrong.

There is nothing absurd about you are either chaste or you're not. You cannot say "Oh yeah I'm chaste, except for the porn I watch". Its like stating your pro-life with exceptions for rape and incest. Chastity is chastity

And thanks again for missing the main point

[Socrates]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1598163' date='Jul 11 2008, 04:15 PM']Is newadvent dogma?[/quote]
No, NewAdvent is a website, but as has been pointed out, NewAdvent is merely transcripting in electronic form T[i]he Catholic Encyclopedia[/i], a well-respected and quite orthodox source. (Ecclesiastical approbation. [i]Nihil Obstat[/i]. June 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.) (And that was from back in the days when a "[i]Nihil Obstat[/i]" actually meant something.)
NewAdvent also has online transcriptions of the Douhay-Rheims Bible and the [i]Summa Theologica[/i], which have proven an invaluable online resource for me.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1598297' date='Jul 11 2008, 09:44 PM']Yea, sorry my sarcasm doesn't come through the internet...

I'm surprised people jumping on jamie here, considering he is the only one posting (other than st. col) that actually has a degree in this...

Edit: And Apo...[/quote]
Quite frankly, a theology degree in itself proves nothing. [mod]personal attack - Lil Red[/mod]
The truth is that traditional Catholic theology has always taught through the centuries that 1) different mortal sins have varying degrees of gravity 2) There are different degrees of punishment/suffering in hell 3) unnatural vice is objectively the worst of the sexual sins

We've provided St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and the [i]Catholic Encyclopedia[/i] to back this up.
So far, the only source given for the novel doctrine that all mortal sins are equal and that all suffering in hell is equal is the opinion of hot stuff, who, unlike St. Thomas, is not a Doctor of the Church.

[mod]personal attack[/mod]

One should also note that traditional Catholic teaching lists sodomy, or unnatural vice, among the four [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=29"]Sins that Cry out to Heaven for Vengeance[/url]: Murder, Sodomy, Oppressing Widows and Orphans, and Defrauding Workers of their Wages.

It should be noted that sodomy is the only sexual sin on the list.

The point here is not to deny or downplay the seriousness of other mortal sins, but to point out there is nothing whatsoever contrary to Catholic theology about condemning homosexual sin and the push to "legitimize" such sin as particularly serious offenses against God.
And to attack other Catholics for doing so, and accuse them of bad theology, is plain wrong.

Edited July 15, 2008 by Lil Red

[XIX]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1599194' date='Jul 13 2008, 03:19 PM']I was a bit quick on typing but what I said certainly doesn't even come close to qualifying for heresy. You might be pissed at me (and I'm not sure why) but don't throw words around if you don't know the full implication of those words.[/quote]
I love you too.

I'm not saying you are a heretic, but your Freudian slip was technically against Church teaching and if you can't take a step back and acknowledge that, people aren't going to pay attention to you. To say that you can't get into Purgatory after committing a mortal sin, is false. I knew what you meant, but technically (and I stress technically, as I know what you meant was different from what you said) you did [i]accidentally[/i] infer that mortal sin can never be forgiven. Which is a heretical comment.


And I still agree there is an undue focus on the homosexual brand of sexual sin.

Edited July 14, 2008 by XIX

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1599268' date='Jul 13 2008, 03:24 PM']I don't know. I don't remember everything from all the councils but if its true, great. Honestly I don't really care either way. But actual quotes from the councils would be beneficial since a cursory look at the results of those don't talk about hell at all.[/quote]


"Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. [b]But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.[/b] We also define that the holy apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world and the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter prince of the apostles, and that he is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians, and to him was committed in blessed Peter the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church, as is contained also in the acts of ecumenical councils and in the sacred canons."

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/Florence.htm#2"]ECCUMENICAL COUNCIL OF FLORENCE[/url]
Session 6, paragraph 11—6th July 1439

[Jaime]

[quote]The point here is not to deny or downplay the seriousness of other mortal sins, but to point out there is nothing whatsoever contrary to Catholic theology about condemning homosexual sin and the push to "legitimize" such sin as particularly serious offenses against God.[/quote]

The brilliant thing about this is that no one has made any attempt to legitimize homosexual acts. So again, while soc won't read this ([mod]personal attack - Lil Red[/mod]) he demonstrates how he adds nothing to the conversation.