Aloysius Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 hot stuff, you are creating contradiction where there is none... logically, it makes sense that justice demands that some sins be more punished than others, it is as simple as that. neither Augustine nor the Catechism contradict that idea... and I defy you to show me where Church teaching contradicts my basic common sense; because if it does then I'll question the common sense, so far you have not shown that. I don't want to get into whether homosexual acts are better or worse than heterosexual fornication, because while there is probably some degree of difference they're very similar sins on a very similar level... I'm more concerned with the theoretical "is genocide worse than masturbation?" and then if so, "does not justice demand that genocide be punished worse than masturbation?". the question is: are there levels in hell? to claim that it is not Catholic thought that there would be levels in hell is absolutely absurd because that is a very Catholic intuition that doesn't just show itself in Dante or Aquinas but all throughout the history of the Church... it would be a novel idea as far as I know to claim that there is no hierarchy in hell... would you care to point me to where exactly this idea is coming from?
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1597436' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:28 PM']hot stuff, you are creating contradiction where there is none... logically, it makes sense that justice demands that some sins be more punished than others, it is as simple as that. neither Augustine nor the Catechism contradict that idea... and I defy you to show me where Church teaching contradicts my basic common sense; because if it does then I'll question the common sense, so far you have not shown that. I don't want to get into whether homosexual acts are better or worse than heterosexual fornication, because while there is probably some degree of difference they're very similar sins on a very similar level... I'm more concerned with the theoretical "is genocide worse than masturbation?" and then if so, "does not justice demand that genocide be punished worse than masturbation?". the question is: are there levels in hell? to claim that it is not Catholic thought that there would be levels in hell is absolutely absurd because that is a very Catholic intuition that doesn't just show itself in Dante or Aquinas but all throughout the history of the Church... it would be a novel idea as far as I know to claim that there is no hierarchy in hell... would you care to point me to where exactly this idea is coming from?[/quote] Al what's the punishment for dieing with a mortal sin on your soul according to the Church? And where does it say that one mortal sin is greater than another? It doesn't. I don't care if there are levels of hell or not. Mortal sin gets you there.
friendofJPII Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1597442' date='Jul 10 2008, 10:35 PM']Al what's the punishment for dieing with a mortal sin on your soul according to the Church? And where does it say that one mortal sin is greater than another? It doesn't. I don't care if there are levels of hell or not. Mortal sin gets you there.[/quote] hot stuff, logic will tell you that while most of the population has commited sins that are mortal some people are more evil than others. You will never convince me that the teenager that struggles with masterbation is on the same level as an abortion doctor.
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597451' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:43 PM']hot stuff, logic will tell you that while most of the population has commited sins that are mortal some people are more evil than others. You will never convince me that the teenager that struggles with masterbation is on the same level as an abortion doctor.[/quote] I didn't say there weren't more evil people or less. I'm saying that according to the Church and the Catechism, mortal sins incur one punishment. Nowhere in Church teaching does it proclaim that there are different levels of hell. Is there? I don't know and neither do you. I know what the Church teaches and I've shown it. If you disagree with it, then you need to understand the teachings of the Church better. The Church teaches that masturbation, premarital sex and homosexual acts are all grave sins against Chastity. It doesn't say one is more grave.
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1597436' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:28 PM']". the question is: are there levels in hell? to claim that it is not Catholic thought that there would be levels in hell is absolutely absurd because that is a very Catholic intuition that doesn't just show itself in Dante or Aquinas but all throughout the history of the Church... it would be a novel idea as far as I know to claim that there is no hierarchy in hell... would you care to point me to where exactly this idea is coming from?[/quote] Al show me where the Church has infallibly taught that there are different levels of hell? Because as much as I understand, all of it comes from Dante and visions of saints. Dante is fiction and private revelations of heaven, hell or purgatory have not been accepted as fact . ( None of the saints seem to ever have the same vision anyway)
Aloysius Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 yeah, I am saying the Church has not taught that there are NOT different levels of hell and it is a widespread and longstanding Catholic belief that there is... nothing you have quoted contradicts that and the Summa Theologica affirms it, so for you to claim that those who believe that have a theology that smells of elderberries (lol) is completely out of line. yes, the Church says mortal sin leads you to hell... and widespread popular Catholic belief is that there are different levels of hell.
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1597512' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:26 AM']yeah, I am saying the Church has not taught that there are NOT different levels of hell and it is a widespread and longstanding Catholic belief that there is... nothing you have quoted contradicts that and the Summa Theologica affirms it, so for you to claim that those who believe that have a theology that smells of elderberries (lol) is completely out of line. yes, the Church says mortal sin leads you to hell... and widespread popular Catholic belief is that there are different levels of hell.[/quote] you're questioning my logic yet you are standing by "YesI'm sayin the Church has not taught that there aren't different levels of hell" your argument is a dante and a double negative. Yeah I'd say that kind of theological thinking is a bit off. And really none of you have even come close to arguing against the point of my original post
Lil Red Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 +J.M.J.+ i'm just gonna point out a couple of things. [quote name='hot stuff' post='1597379' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:00 PM']Good thing Soc has me on ignore so he can't see me say how bad his theology smells of elderberries. He likes to pick and choose what he likes. While St Thomas is a doctor of the Church, he is also not infallible in the Summa. Nor does the Church claim that the Summa is infallible.[/quote] and neither is St. Augustine infallible, right? just pointing that out. [quote name='Socrates' post='1597420' date='Jul 10 2008, 09:17 PM']hot stuff is on "ignore," as he has been for some time. I'm not afraid of him; I simply do not wish to waste time with his personal attacks.[/quote] hot stuff isn't the only one who 'wastes time' with personal attacks.
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1597520' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:33 AM']+J.M.J.+ i'm just gonna point out a couple of things. and neither is St. Augustine infallible, right? just pointing that out. hot stuff isn't the only one who 'wastes time' with personal attacks. [/quote] Actually his teaching on the definition of mortal sin is infallible. St Thomas's teaching on sodomy being the most grievious sin, to my knowledge, is not held as infallible
Lil Red Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1597524' date='Jul 10 2008, 10:37 PM']Actually his teaching on the definition of mortal sin is infallible.[/quote] +J.M.J.+ really? i never knew that. could you link me please? thanks.
friendofJPII Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1597493' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:10 PM']I didn't say there weren't more evil people or less. I'm saying that according to the Church and the Catechism, mortal sins incur one punishment. Nowhere in Church teaching does it proclaim that there are different levels of hell. Is there? I don't know and neither do you. I know what the Church teaches and I've shown it. If you disagree with it, then you need to understand the teachings of the Church better. The Church teaches that masturbation, premarital sex and homosexual acts are all grave sins against Chastity. It doesn't say one is more grave.[/quote] The gravity really depends on the individual commiting the sin, because that is what sin is ---an [i][b]act [/[/b]i] commited by another. However, speaking in generalities, homosexuality is direct attack on the created order of the sexes and the rite of procreation. The homosexual agenda seeks to redefine the created reality...."i.e. the pregnant man..." and I think that is what people are reacting to.
friendofJPII Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 "If I speak with tounges of men and of angels, but have not love, I am but a clanging bell..." Let's debate in charity.
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1597525' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:37 AM']+J.M.J.+ really? i never knew that. could you link me please? thanks.[/quote] 1871 Sin is an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law (St. Augustine, Faust 22: PL 42, 418). It is an offense against God. It rises up against God in a disobedience contrary to the obedience of Christ. <a name="PROLIFERATION"> that's the catechism quoting him
Jaime Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597528' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:41 AM']"If I speak with tounges of men and of angels, but have not love, I am but a clanging bell..." Let's debate in charity.[/quote] I don't think I've been uncharitable (I've not used sport once) I've quoted Church doctrine
rkwright Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597526' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:38 PM']The gravity really depends on the individual commiting the sin, because that is what sin is ---an [i][b]act [/[/b]i] commited by another. However, speaking in generalities, homosexuality is direct attack on the created order of the sexes and the rite of procreation. The homosexual agenda seeks to redefine the created reality...."i.e. the pregnant man..." and I think that is what people are reacting to.[/quote] Same could be said of masturbation and many more people struggle with that.
rkwright Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 [quote name='hot stuff' post='1597493' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:10 PM']I didn't say there weren't more evil people or less. I'm saying that according to the Church and the Catechism, mortal sins incur one punishment. Nowhere in Church teaching does it proclaim that there are different levels of hell. Is there? I don't know and neither do you. I know what the Church teaches and I've shown it. If you disagree with it, then you need to understand the teachings of the Church better. The Church teaches that masturbation, premarital sex and homosexual acts are all grave sins against Chastity. It doesn't say one is more grave.[/quote]
jmjtina Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 (edited) mortal sin = hell. People are reacting to the culture of death, which includes celebrities who glamorize same sex attraction. And I have never heard of a hierarchy of hell. Care to point out evidence that lends itself to that thought? You say throughout Church history? Where? I've read about the hierarchy in heaven, but in Hell? The only one I could think of is Satan at the top. But by one step. I don't remember reading about a hierarchy in Summa Theologica, but I could be wrong. It's time I re-read it anyway. Edited July 11, 2008 by jmjtina
johnnydigit Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 i think the misunderstanding here may be the gravity of the sin *after* you've already been judged and are in hell (gravity doesn't matter), vs. *after* you've confessed and must deal with reparation and purification from now until purgatory (gravity does matter).
KnightofChrist Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 (edited) [quote name='johnnydigit' post='1597592' date='Jul 11 2008, 02:47 AM']i think the misunderstanding here may be the gravity of the sin *after* you've already been judged and are in hell (gravity doesn't matter), vs. *after* you've confessed and must deal with reparation and purification from now until purgatory (gravity does matter).[/quote] But there all levels of Hell, the pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit, which are based on the sins one committed in life. The worse the sins the lower in Hell one will go. [quote]Beyond affirming the existence of such a state, with varying degrees of punishment corresponding to degrees of guilt and its eternal or unending duration, Catholic doctrine does not go. It is a terrible and mysterious truth, but it is clearly and emphatically taught by Christ and the Apostles. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm[/url][/quote] And as Catholics we believe that Christ descended into Hell or "The Limbo of the Fathers”. There the the just waited for Christ to take them to heaven. This Limbo was the first level of hell. Edited July 11, 2008 by KnightofChrist
XIX Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' post='1597330' date='Jul 10 2008, 11:29 PM']Despite what certain puppets of modern liberal ideology might tell you[/quote] [quote]hot stuff is on "ignore," as he has been for some time. I'm not afraid of him; I simply do not wish to waste time with his personal attacks.[/quote] [img]http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w233/caturdayskwerl/fail-i-told-you.jpg[/img] Edited July 11, 2008 by XIX
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