Homosexuals And Our Attitude Towards Them

[friendofJPII]

hot stuff,

When I spoke about the need to debate in charity, I was speaking to all of us, not just you.

And when I was talking about the definition of sin, my main emphasis was that sin is committed by a person. And in order for a sin to be mortal sin 3 conditions must be met, and 2 of those conditions are dependent on the individual person. So two people can commit the same sin, but recieve different punishments from God.

That being said, I think you are confusing gravity and outcome. A teenager may be sent to the principal's office and suspended from school if he pushes one student in the bathroom or two students. The punishment (outcome) may be the same. Suspension. But of course, pushing two students is worse because he hurt more people.

We know that time people stay in purgatory is determined by what sins they commited on earth. Certain sins require more reparation than others. Thus certain sins are more serious than others. ---friendofjpii

[LouisvilleFan]

Time in purgatory? Which Catechism did you find that in?

Edited July 11, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[friendofJPII]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1597622' date='Jul 11 2008, 07:59 AM']Time in purgatory? Which Catechism did you find that in? [/quote]

I don't have the CC on hand but it is common knowledge that people stay in purgatory for different amounts of time

[Jaime]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597615' date='Jul 11 2008, 08:47 AM']hot stuff,

When I spoke about the need to debate in charity, I was speaking to all of us, not just you.

And when I was talking about the definition of sin, my main emphasis was that sin is committed by a person. And in order for a sin to be mortal sin 3 conditions must be met, and 2 of those conditions are dependent on the individual person. So two people can commit the same sin, but recieve different punishments from God.

That being said, I think you are confusing gravity and outcome. A teenager may be sent to the principal's office and suspended from school if he pushes one student in the bathroom or two students. The punishment (outcome) may be the same. Suspension. But of course, pushing two students is worse because he hurt more people.

We know that time people stay in purgatory is determined by what sins they commited on earth. Certain sins require more reparation than others. Thus certain sins are more serious than others. ---friendofjpii[/quote]

FriednofJPII if you want me to teach you about sin, let's start another thread. You are dragging us off topic Because now you are confusing venial and mortal sin. If someone commits a sin, dies and goes to purgatory (and this is key) then they did not meet the criteria of mortal sin. So YES there are different levels of punishment for those in purgatory. But according to Church teaching, people in purgatory did not commit a mortal sin!

[friendofJPII]

[i]But according to Church teaching, people in purgatory did not commit a mortal sin![/i]

Yes, they did. Most of them probably committed a mortal sin at some point in their lifetime. They were forgiven in confession, but they still have to atone for what they have done. And the Church leaves open the possibility that there are non-Catholics in purgatory, who may have not had the opportunity to enter the Church and receive the sacraments. Their sins still have to be atoned for, however. Of course, indulgences, perfect contrition, martyrdom, and God's mercy comes into play here too, we simply do not know or will ever know on this side all the details of the afterlife.

Edited July 11, 2008 by friendofJPII

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1597644' date='Jul 11 2008, 08:16 AM']But according to Church teaching, people in purgatory did not commit a mortal sin![/quote]
Of course they committed mortal sins during their life time, but it is true that they did not die in a state of mortal sin.

Nevertheless, they are atoning for the temporal effects of their sins, both venial and mortal.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1597751' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:14 PM']Of course they committed mortal sins during their life time, but it is true that they did not die in a state of mortal sin.

Nevertheless, they are atoning for the temporal effects of their sins, both venial and mortal.[/quote]

Sorry I'm jumping in so late...

So even if we die in a state of grace we still go to Purgatory?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1597771' date='Jul 11 2008, 10:29 AM']Sorry I'm jumping in so late...

So even if we die in a state of grace we still go to Purgatory?[/quote]
The Latin Church teaches that only those who die in a state of grace can go to purgatory. Those who die in a state of mortal sin go to hell.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Apotheoun

[StColette]

I thought that posting this might help with the equality of sins issue. Father Cappie just addressed this today.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=82546&view=findpost&p=1597489"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t&p=1597489[/url]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1597781' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:38 PM']The Latin Church teaches that only those who die in a state of grace can go to purgatory. Those who die in a state of mortal sin go to hell.[/quote]

Right. Maybe I should clarify my question. Don't those who die in a state of grace go to Heaven? You were saying that they go to Purgatory because they still have to atone for past sins. So my question is, are you saying that when one dies, they either go to Hell or Purgatory, no one goes directly to Heaven? But if we've gone to Confession and are forgiven and wiped clean of our sin, what do we have to atone for?

[StColette]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1597845' date='Jul 11 2008, 01:09 PM']Right. Maybe I should clarify my question. Don't those who die in a state of grace go to Heaven? You were saying that they go to Purgatory because they still have to atone for past sins. So my question is, are you saying that when one dies, they either go to Hell or Purgatory, no one goes directly to Heaven?[/quote]


Some of our sins, even though they are forgiven, have need of atonement or reparation. As Todd (Apoth) pointed out there are temporal effects of their sins which must be atoned for. Those souls who die in the state of grace, but the temporal effects of their past sins are still with them would go to Purgatory. Those souls who die in the state of grace and who don't not suffer from an temporal effects of their past sins would go to Heaven. Those who die outside of the state of grace would go to Hell.

[quote]But if we've gone to Confession and are forgiven and wiped clean of our sin, what do we have to atone for?[/quote]

As I mentioned above, and so did Todd, that our sins have temporal effects that must be atoned for. Even if we go to Confession and our sins are forgiven, we still suffer from the temporal effects of the sins we committed. For instance, say someone slandered someone's name on purpose, someone they knew. They felt horrible for doing so and went to Confession. Most likely the Confessor would advise the penitent to make reparation toward this person, to make right what they have done wrong. That's a type of atonement that can take place on earth. Jesus teaches us that even after we are forgiven of things, atonement or reparation must also follow. Somethings, I believe, we aren't able to make full or complete atonement for here on earth.

From the Catechism

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, [b]but still imperfectly purified[/b], are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[604] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[605] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[606]

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."[607] From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.[608] The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead: Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.[609]

[KnightofChrist]

Levels of Hell = Varying degrees of punishment corresponding to degrees of guilt. And Catholic Doctrine does teach this.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1597845' date='Jul 11 2008, 11:09 AM']Right. Maybe I should clarify my question. Don't those who die in a state of grace go to Heaven? You were saying that they go to Purgatory because they still have to atone for past sins. So my question is, are you saying that when one dies, they either go to Hell or Purgatory, no one goes directly to Heaven?[/quote]
Those who die in a state of grace go to either heaven or purgatory. Those who die in a state of mortal sin go to hell.

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1597845' date='Jul 11 2008, 11:09 AM']But if we've gone to Confession and are forgiven and wiped clean of our sin, what do we have to atone for?[/quote]
According to Latin Church teaching the eternal punishment owed for sin is remitted in the sacrament of confession, but the temporal punishment may remain, and that is why not everyone who dies in a state of grace goes immediately to heaven.

[HisChildForever]

Okay, thanks for clearing that up, you two

Another question (heh, sorry) - does "state of grace" mean being clean of mortal [b]and[/b] venial sin, or just mortal sin?

edit: If "state of grace" just means being clean of mortal sin, then I assume that a soul in a state of grace with venial sin would go to Purgatory, right?

Edited July 11, 2008 by HisChildForever

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='friendofJPII' post='1597636' date='Jul 11 2008, 10:46 AM']I don't have the CC on hand but it is common knowledge that people stay in purgatory for different amounts of time[/quote]

I've read that as a common misconception about purgatory. Never seen anything from the Church itself saying that there is even such a thing as time in purgatory. All we know is that purification is necessary to enter Heaven, but once we're dead the idea of "time" as we know it now no longer applies.

Edited July 11, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1597941' date='Jul 11 2008, 12:21 PM']Okay, thanks for clearing that up, you two

Another question (heh, sorry) - does "state of grace" mean being clean of mortal [b]and[/b] venial sin, or just mortal sin?

edit: If "state of grace" just means being clean of mortal sin, then I assume that a soul in a state of grace with venial sin would go to Purgatory, right?[/quote]
Yes, one can be in a state of grace and be venially sinful, and such a person would go to purgatory if he died in that condition, but a person can also go to purgatory in order remove the temporal punishments that remain from sins that have previously been forgiven through the sacrament of confession.

On the other hand, mortal sin kills grace in the soul, and so if a person dies in a state of mortal sin he goes to hell.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Apotheoun

[StColette]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1597941' date='Jul 11 2008, 02:21 PM']Okay, thanks for clearing that up, you two

Another question (heh, sorry) - does "state of grace" mean being clean of mortal [b]and[/b] venial sin, or just mortal sin?

edit: If "state of grace" just means being clean of mortal sin, then I assume that a soul in a state of grace with venial sin would go to Purgatory, right?[/quote]

State of Grace means being clean of mortal sin. Mortal sin is a complete separation from God and His graces. Venial sin can damage our relationship with God but they don't not completely separate us from Him or His graces.

CCC
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.


In answer to your edit, yes a soul that dies with venial sin on their soul and is in the state of grace would go to Purgatory for purifcation.

I would like to add that this could have a slight loophole, not the right word but I can't think of it right now lol. If a person was about to die as a martyr for the faith and they had venial sins on their soul. I would say that the act of martyrdom could be reparation or atonement enough for those venial sins and that soul would enter right into Heaven, unless it had temporal effects of other sins that it first must make atonement for in purgatory. This is just an assumption; God has the final call on that, it's just a thought though.

[Apotheoun]

Below is a quotation taken from the Latin Church's catechism on purgatory and temporal punishment:

[quote]1472: To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.[/quote]

[jmjtina]

Purgatory is one thing, but different levels of Hell?

[quote]Levels of Hell = Varying degrees of punishment corresponding to degrees of guilt. And Catholic Doctrine does teach this.[/quote]

Would anyone care to provide evidence to support or debunk this claim? KoC, could you refer to the Catholic doctrine that teaches this?

Edited July 11, 2008 by jmjtina

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm"]Characteristics of the pains of hell[/url]

(1) The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment -- all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05528b.htm"]Hell[/url]

..hell is the state of those who are punished eternally for unrepented personal mortal sin. Beyond affirming the existence of such a state, with varying degrees of punishment corresponding to degrees of guilt and its eternal or unending duration, Catholic doctrine does not go. It is a terrible and mysterious truth, but it is clearly and emphatically taught by Christ and the Apostles.