Sinner Posted March 3, 2004 Author Posted March 3, 2004 First off let me say…. I AM NOT FOND OF THE LIFE TEEN MASS OR ANY LITURGICAL ABUSE!!!!!!! ..But that does not mean I will walk away from my Parish. I remain in my pew and work on obedience, humility……. I wince, I pray, I wince, I pray. I could have walked away a long time ago…. But I have stayed and prayed for my Parish and our Priests and will continue to do so unless our Mass becomes invalid. So far God has answered my prayers and our Mass continues to become more beautiful with fewer abuses….. and for this I am truly thankful to God!! I APOLIGIZE FOR MY LENGTH…… BUT TO REBUT A FEW ISSUES…….. I SAID... “even the teens around the altar got on their knees for the Eucharistic Prayer (still not fond of the sharing the altar thingy).” So I already know the GIRM states no one but the Priest should be up there. That is why I said I am “not fond of the sharing the altar thingy” Thomas Michael Regarding “Liturgical Nazi” ….Well I didn’t coin the phrase….. but when I use it, folks know exactly what I mean; as evidenced by the replies above. I will concede it has a certain shock value, and might not be the most PC way of expressing myself. CMOM & PedroX Sorry, I should have written the Priest remained standing (the rest of us were all on our knees). Hehehe AByzantineCatholic You write….”Perhaps you should know that NO ONE is allowed "around the altar!" The Mass you went to was ILLICILIT and ILLEGAL! I would refer you to the GIRM for more understanding.” To that I say…… I am not sure about the Byzantine Rite, but I will make the arguments below regarding the Latin Rite. Illicit….perhaps. ILLEGAL….I don’t think so. If I thought it was I would have to find a new Mass to attend (not that I am particularly fond of the Life Teen Mass as noted above). Levels of Abuse - Invalid and Illicit The most serious type of abuse makes the Mass "invalid." For a Mass to be invalid, the Consecration of the Eucharist does not occur. The lesser abuse is called "illicit." These type of abuses are less serious and do not cause the failure of the Consecration of the Eucharist. There are a wide variety of these types of abuses which detract from the holiness and reverence in the Mass. However, an illicit Mass can still be a valid (as opposed to invalid) Mass. Serious Abuses - Those which Invalidate the Mass The Church has very specifically defined what must - and must not - occur so that transubstantiation will result. There are four conditions required for a valid Consecration resulting in the miracle of transubstantiation. All of these conditions must be present for a valid Consecration. This is dogma. Condition One - Validly Ordained Male Priest Only a validly ordained male priest can confect the Eucharistic Condition Two - Intent of the Priest The priest must have the intent of doing what the Church does, that being the intent to make Jesus physically present via the miracle of transubstantiation at the consecration. Condition Three - Matter Note that this article deals with only the Western Latin Rite Church. There are different rules for Eastern Rite Catholic Churches, such as Byzantine Catholic. For the Western Latin Rite Catholic Church, valid matter consists of wheat unleavened bread and grape wine. Condition Four - Form Christ took the bread and the cup and gave thanks; he broke the bread and gave it to his disciples, saying: "Take and eat, this is my body." Giving the cup, he said: "Take and drink, this is the cup of my blood. Do this in memory of me." The key phrases which confect the Eucharist are "This is My Body" and "This is ... My Blood," which when said by a priest with the proper intention and matter (explained above), truly show the priest acts in the Person of Christ. Changing the words of the preparatory parts of the Eucharistic prayer is illicit and gravely sinful for the priest, but would not invalidate the Eucharist as long as "This is My Body" and "This is ... My Blood" are said. Peace.
Sinner Posted March 3, 2004 Author Posted March 3, 2004 (edited) :rolling: Joemal117 "Liturgical Committee" :thatsfunny: :thatsfunny: :thatsfunny: Edited March 3, 2004 by Sinner
aByzantineCatholic Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 (edited) Sinner, I guess then you know better than the experts at EWTN. Forgive me for questing your authority. BTW, you quoted "Invalid" reasons. Illicit means Illegal and that does not me Invalid. SSPX are Illicit Masses, LifeTeen Masses are Illicit. Anglican Masses are Illegal. Big difference! Edited March 5, 2004 by aByzantineCatholic
cathgirl Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 We also had some changes at my parish. I really like them all, except for standing after Communion. I really liked kneeling b/c I felt really close to Jesus. I could close my eyes and bow my head. I know I could do it standing, but it jsut isn't the same. I've never heard of a Life Teen Mass.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 [quote]Yeah, but people here are referring to THEMSELVES as "Liturgical Nazis". It just makes me a bit uncomfortable, even as a cradle Catholic of German ancestry. And the word has the potential to cause Phatmass to be blocked from some workplaces if "Nazi" is included in the corporate word filters.[/quote] Actaully, I'll sort of second that. I'm not particularly offended, but I am an eigth Jewish and I know many people who are very sensative to the term's being used in such a way that it seems not to show how evil Nazism is. I mean, just using it for any fanatic kind of takes away the evil behind it.
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 [quote]Anglican Masses are Illegal.[/quote] No, "illicit" means "illegal". Anglican Masses are invalid. As for Life Teen Masses, I'm not particularly fond of them, but their not necessarily illicit...I think it depends on how liberal they are. I was at one where there was no kneeling during the Consecration. I also was at a parish for an Easter Mass and I'm pretty sure the Eucharist was from banana bread... I hate liturgical liberality...and dogmatic liberality...and moral liberality...and scriptural liberality...okay, so I'm a conservative who stands completely in favor of the Magisterium and abides by the Catechism...
the_rev Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 I'm a conservative CAtholic, and hate it when church's don't follow new changes!
aByzantineCatholic Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 (edited) Raphael, [quote]No, "illicit" means "illegal". Anglican Masses are invalid.[/quote] I meant to say that! Sorry! Typeo... To be honest, if I can't find a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom then I look for an indult Mass. If I can't find an indult Mass then I go to an Orthodox Church. Basically, I have given up on the Novus Ordo Mass. It makes me too sad to attend one. I guess if I was ever up in EWTN country I would not mine there Novus Ordo Mass. I wonder if the authors of the Novus Ordo ever thought that many youth would prefer the Traditional Liturgy? Umm.... Never know... Oh well. God Bless! Edited March 5, 2004 by aByzantineCatholic
cmotherofpirl Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 [quote name='cathgirl' date='Mar 4 2004, 11:19 PM'] We also had some changes at my parish. I really like them all, except for standing after Communion. I really liked kneeling b/c I felt really close to Jesus. I could close my eyes and bow my head. I know I could do it standing, but it jsut isn't the same. I've never heard of a Life Teen Mass. [/quote] What is this standing after communion bit? You wouldn't happen to be in the Erie Diocese would you?
aByzantineCatholic Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 cmotherofpirl, You said, [quote]What is this standing after communion bit? [/quote] What's with the whole Mass? The Bishop can't even it get the New Mass correct to begin with. For example, [url="http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2004a/012304/012304e.php"]New Mass translation said to be 'elegant,' closer to the Latin [/url]. Why hasn't it been "closer" to the Latin to begin with? I think we all know that there are two forces at work inside the Church. Force A: The liberal - LifeTeen Mass group and Force B: The faithful - EWTN group As long as the devil is around he will keep trying to divide us. Meanwhile, I don't believe in experments so I stick with Tradition! Can't go around with Tradition! God Bless!
Thomas Michael Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 [quote name='the_rev' date='Mar 4 2004, 09:37 PM'] I'm a conservative CAtholic, and hate it when church's don't follow new changes! [/quote] Am I the only one who saw the humor in this statement? :ph34r:
aByzantineCatholic Posted March 5, 2004 Posted March 5, 2004 Thomas, I got it but didn't think it was funny but rather sad. St. Michael Defend Us!
Sinner Posted March 8, 2004 Author Posted March 8, 2004 FIRST...May I say it sounds as if the majority of folks here would prefer a more traditional and reverential Mass centered on the Eucharist....... and really, this post is a celebration of that movement at my Parish, and I hope many others!! Catholic Lite has not won many vocations in my Diocese....while at the same time we have lost many youth to various Protestant "Fellowships" while we tried to copy their programs. SECOND... I have decided to abstain from using the LN designation in future writing to avoid hurting anyone's feelings. Originally I had the phrase used against me as slander, and decided to wear it instead as a badge of honor.... but will now cease and desist.... Thank you Thomas Michael. Yeah and I think The Rev was being sarcastic??????
cmotherofpirl Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 [quote name='aByzantineCatholic' date='Mar 5 2004, 12:06 PM'] cmotherofpirl, You said, What's with the whole Mass? The Bishop can't even it get the New Mass correct to begin with. For example, [url="http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2004a/012304/012304e.php"]New Mass translation said to be 'elegant,' closer to the Latin [/url]. Why hasn't it been "closer" to the Latin to begin with? I think we all know that there are two forces at work inside the Church. Force A: The liberal - LifeTeen Mass group and Force B: The faithful - EWTN group As long as the devil is around he will keep trying to divide us. Meanwhile, I don't believe in experments so I stick with Tradition! Can't go around with Tradition! God Bless! [/quote] You did not answer my question. This is not a debate board, and we do not pit catholic vs catholic at phatmass.
cmotherofpirl Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 Sinner what are you referring to here "and everyone remaining standing until the Body of Christ is safely in the Tabernacle"?
Thomas Michael Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 Let me just say I do find the whole situation pretty sad... maybe I should've used the word "irony", now that I think about it. The Church is trying to make things right with their trying to implement the changes to the Liturgy, and hardly anyone's willing to go along. It was a teeny bit funny to see a conservative stating opposition to those NOT making changes, though... just from a semantics viewpoint.
dUSt Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 One can actually attend a valid Anglican Rite mass within the Catholic Church. I have an Anglican Rite parish near my home, and it's a beautiful mass. aByzantineCatholic, Please be careful when critisizing the Novus Ordo mass, because it shows disrespect to the Church's authority, which can not be tolerated here. I know that you feel that the Novus Ordo is valid if done correctly, so try to limit your negative comments to the actual abuses without making generalities about the whole mass. God bless.
cmotherofpirl Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 I'm gonna email EWTN with a suggestion for a series. I would like them to film a Mass from each of the 22-3 different rites of the Church, and broadcast them. I think it would be a great message on the universality of the Church.
Sinner Posted March 9, 2004 Author Posted March 9, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Mar 8 2004, 07:08 AM'] Sinner what are you referring to here "and everyone remaining standing until the Body of Christ is safely in the Tabernacle"? [/quote] [color=red][b]CMOM[/b][/color] Please see my answer to your question about standing on page 2 under "CMOM" Peace...... :ph34r:
Sinner Posted March 9, 2004 Author Posted March 9, 2004 I think he means when the local Parish doesn't follow the "new" implementation of the GIRM 2003??? Right? Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk!!!!!
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