What Determines Someones Race?

[cmotherofpirl]

Skin tone or culture?

This is a serious question, so no silly answers please.

[Mercy me]

I always assumed origin. I have a very good friend of mine who always harps on the issue because race has become a political term, African-American, and as a a proud British subject she always has to check other. She is black.

[CatherineM]

If you are born as pale as I was, it is easier to change your skin tone than to change your culture. I've been many shades darker, especially living in Florida, although I've lost all of my tan now.

I had a great uncle who never had children because his father in law was a Kansas state senator who was "passing" as we used to say. They were afraid they might have a dark child, and it would out them, ruin his father in law, and his own medical practice. His wife was his nurse, and this was the 20-50's. Her pale skin allowed her to integrate into the WASP culture of my mother's family.

We have a lot of African immigrants in our neighborhood, and there was someone in line at the grocery store who was very dark, and I assumed that he was African until he opened his mouth. He had a pronounced Spanish accent, and was actually from Cuba.

I don't know, but I tend to think more cultural.

[Excelsior1027]

I never understood why we tend to differentiate groups of human beings as different races. Aren't we all of the race of man? It's just our different ethnic backgrounds that differentiate us.

[Era Might]

I would say, at the most basic level, DNA determines your race. A person who is biracial is still both races, regardless of their culture or skin color, because they have the DNA of both races.

I suppose the word "race" can also be used less technically, to refer to groups of people from common regions of the world (e.g., Europeans, Asians, Africans, etc.), or from common cultures.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1607667' date='Jul 24 2008, 05:24 PM']We have a lot of African immigrants in our neighborhood, and there was someone in line at the grocery store who was very dark, and I assumed that he was African until he opened his mouth. He had a pronounced Spanish accent, and was actually from Cuba.[/quote]
It is sometimes very hard indeed to ascertain the ethnicities of the Carribbean and Latin American peoples, without prior knowledge. Some Puerto Ricans and Cubans look exactly like my Scottish and French grandmother. Many Dominicans and almost all Haitians look like black people (I hate using the term "African-American" in place of "black", for many reasons. For instance, ever heard of South Africa? There are just a few white people there. Also, how many black people in this country are truly African-American? I was born in America, as were my parents, and their parents. Am I still a European-American? If not, why are black people still African-American? Not to mention, that I've said "black people" around my black friends before, and they've never expressed offence. When one of them asks me to quit using the term "black" and "white", I'll gladly do so. Race isn't a big deal to me - it doesn't matter if you're white, black, yellow, or red, I go by content of character.) (Good golly, that was a long parenthetical diatribe ).
As for the original question, I'd think it would depend upon the individual's definition of himself, as to what his race is. After all, it is the individual doing the answering.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1607727' date='Jul 24 2008, 08:47 PM']It is sometimes very hard indeed to ascertain the ethnicities of the Carribbean and Latin American peoples, without prior knowledge. Some Puerto Ricans and Cubans look exactly like my Scottish and French grandmother. Many Dominicans and almost all Haitians look like black people (I hate using the term "African-American" in place of "black", for many reasons. For instance, ever heard of South Africa? There are just a few white people there. Also, how many black people in this country are truly African-American? I was born in America, as were my parents, and their parents. Am I still a European-American? If not, why are black people still African-American? Not to mention, that I've said "black people" around my black friends before, and they've never expressed offence. When one of them asks me to quit using the term "black" and "white", I'll gladly do so. Race isn't a big deal to me - it doesn't matter if you're white, black, yellow, or red, I go by content of character.) (Good golly, that was a long parenthetical diatribe ).
As for the original question, I'd think it would depend upon the individual's definition of himself, as to what his race is. After all, it is the individual doing the answering.[/quote]
So you think self-definition is the key?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1607784' date='Jul 24 2008, 07:30 PM']So you think self-definition is the key?[/quote]
I'd say so, yes.
Not quite race, but for instance, I consider myself culturally Southern. The way I speak, I things I eat, my general world view, etc. are pretty much Southern. I was born in Pittsburgh. My parents are from PA and OH. I have ancestors who fought in the Civil War for the union. So, what defines my culture - my birthplace or how I live?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1607794' date='Jul 24 2008, 09:38 PM']I'd say so, yes.
Not quite race, but for instance, I consider myself culturally Southern. The way I speak, I things I eat, my general world view, etc. are pretty much Southern. I was born in Pittsburgh. My parents are from PA and OH. I have ancestors who fought in the Civil War for the union. So, what defines my culture - my birthplace or how I live?[/quote]
AH blasphemy!!! how can you be from Pittsburgh and think you are southern??????

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1607795' date='Jul 24 2008, 07:40 PM']AH blasphemy!!! how can you be from Pittsburgh and think you are southern?????? [/quote]
Hahaha, I get that more than you'd think. If it's any consolation, I consider both Jacksonville and Pittsburgh my hometowns...plus, I just spent nearly three weeks in da Burgh. Does that gain me any redemption?

[Deus te Amat]

I'd say culture. I just got home from Australia, and the customs people laughed at the "stupid americans" that put Caucasian under nationality. Color of skin seems to be a big deal in America, but hardly noticed in (some) other parts of the world.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1607705' date='Jul 24 2008, 07:03 PM']I would say, at the most basic level, DNA determines your race. A person who is biracial is still both races, regardless of their culture or skin color, because they have the DNA of both races.

I suppose the word "race" can also be used less technically, to refer to groups of people from common regions of the world (e.g., Europeans, Asians, Africans, etc.), or from common cultures.[/quote]

I've heard it said before that there is no genetic basis for race. I'm not entirely sure what is meant by this, because two parents of one race never give birth to a child of another race. I've always assumed that this meant that in terms of relative amount of genetic material, the amount that determines race is comparable to the amount of material that determines things like eye- and hair-color.

The problem is that there is a great deal of phenotypic and genotypic variation within "races", so it's difficult to group people together. That is, the amount of genetic variation within a race invalidates the continuity of the label -- [b]everyone within a "race" is too "different" to be the "same"[/b]. Biologists and anthropologists note that the only truly meaningful method of grouping is based on place of geographic origin -- eg. that the term "Caucasian" is much too broad to fully describe the level of genetic variance amongst the people of Eurasia. The reality is that people that live closer together are genetically more similar, while people who live further apart are genetically more dissimilar. [b]This leads to a geographic genetic [u]gradient[/u], called a cline.[/b] Thus Eurasia, for example, is populated by many peoples, and then those "in between", based upon their location between clines.

The problem with today's globalized society, however, is that these geographic regions are becoming more and more blurred, making it difficult if not impossible to group based on geographic origin. Case in point: America.

I believe that race is a vestigial social construct, with decreasing social utility, based upon the reality of globalization as noted before.

[Era Might]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1607853' date='Jul 24 2008, 09:20 PM']The reality is that people that live closer together are genetically more similar, while people who live further apart are genetically more dissimilar.[/quote]
True. I can often tell whether a white person is American or European. Similarly, I can often tell whether a black person is American, African, or even Haitian.

There seems to be something visibly different about people from different parts of the world, even when they have the same skin color.

[Maximilianus]

I find that people tend to equate ethnicity and nationality with race; for example I'm Puerto Rican. Being that Puerto Ricans are citizens of the United States that makes my nationality American(Independistas and Puerto Rican nationalist will argue, but that's political) My ethnicity is Puerto Rican because my traditions, culture, and identity have been formed on that island and it has become endemic there.

My race...I don't know. Most Puerto Ricans range from descendants of white Europeans to black west Africans with a little native Taino thrown in and a combination of the three. Most PRicans have Spanish last names, some have Irish, Italian, French and English. There are even some Puerto Ricans descendant from Chinese ...

For official reasons I will check "Hispanic" or "Latino" as my race, but that's not correct.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Excelsior1027' post='1607672' date='Jul 24 2008, 11:28 PM']I never understood why we tend to differentiate groups of human beings as different races. Aren't we all of the race of man? It's just our different ethnic backgrounds that differentiate us.[/quote]
That's what I thought.

[quote name='Era Might' post='1608019' date='Jul 25 2008, 04:07 AM']True. I can often tell whether a white person is American or European. Similarly, I can often tell whether a black person is American, African, or even Haitian.

There seems to be something visibly different about people from different parts of the world, even when they have the same skin color.[/quote]
I know what you mean.

[Balthazor]

[quote name='Deus_te_Amat' post='1607810' date='Jul 24 2008, 08:54 PM']I'd say culture. I just got home from Australia, and the customs people laughed at the "stupid americans" that put Caucasian under nationality. Color of skin seems to be a big deal in America, but hardly noticed in (some) other parts of the world.[/quote]

This is SOOOOO not true!

I am living in Europe and I have got to say if you look like a Gyspy. Dark skin, dark hair dark eyes you ARE treated differently. It really doesn't matter if you are a Gypsy or not, if they even think you are Roma you are treated very poorly.

Also Europeans treat people as minorities if their ancestors were of one race or nationality even if they look, talk and act like everyone else. For example, if your Great Grndmother was hungarian and you live in Slovakia, and your family hasa lived in Slovakia for over one hundred years. Geuss what... you are still a minority.! You are treated like a minority too. Even if you look like everyone else, and speak the local language flawlessly It is really amazing.

Nationality and race is just as important in other parts of the world as it is in America. They are no better or worse than Americans.

Personally I think Race is Bologna Sausage.

We can't even decide how to categorize it.
Apparently I am white... which is a color.
But Hispanic or Latino is a language.
and then Pacific Islander or Asian... that is a place.

I mean according to this I have a shifting race, I speak three languages one Germanic and two Slavic. My skin color changes drastically from summer to winter... so I am white in the winter and tan in the summer and I have lived in three different countries and my parents ancestors spoke different languages and came from different countries.

The terms that really get me are Caucasian or anglo-saxon. Which apparently I am both.
I am not from the Caucus mountains, I am not asian. I also have no Anglo or saxon blood!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1608124' date='Jul 25 2008, 08:00 AM']This is SOOOOO not true!

I am living in Europe and I have got to say if you look like a Gyspy. Dark skin, dark hair dark eyes you ARE treated differently. It really doesn't matter if you are a Gypsy or not, if they even think you are Roma you are treated very poorly.

Also Europeans treat people as minorities if their ancestors were of one race or nationality even if they look, talk and act like everyone else. For example, if your Great Grndmother was hungarian and you live in Slovakia, and your family hasa lived in Slovakia for over one hundred years. Geuss what... you are still a minority.! You are treated like a minority too. Even if you look like everyone else, and speak the local language flawlessly It is really amazing.

Nationality and race is just as important in other parts of the world as it is in America. They are no better or worse than Americans.

Personally I think Race is Bologna Sausage.

We can't even decide how to categorize it.
Apparently I am white... which is a color.
But Hispanic or Latino is a language.
and then Pacific Islander or Asian... that is a place.[/quote]
Fascinating, this is the confusion that I am thinking of. What culture or cultural background would you say you are?

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Balthazor' post='1608124' date='Jul 25 2008, 02:00 PM']Also Europeans treat people as minorities if their ancestors were of one race or nationality even if they look, talk and act like everyone else. For example, if your Great Grndmother was hungarian and you live in Slovakia, and your family hasa lived in Slovakia for over one hundred years. Geuss what... you are still a minority.! You are treated like a minority too. Even if you look like everyone else, and speak the local language flawlessly It is really amazing.[/quote]

I think you're over-generalizing about Europeans here. From the people I know here (the Netherlands) I know one person who's half Dutch and half Hungarian but my friends and I see her as simply Dutch, whilst I [i]think[/i] she sees herself as part Hungarian. I'm half Filipino but I don't identify with that "race". Two friends of mine are Sri Lankan by ancestry (their parents moved here before they were born) and, well, I'm not sure we ever even think about their "race". I could go on!

My point is that in the West of Europe, or at least in this country, there's such a mix of people that I'd be tempted to say that the minority is the [i]Dutch[/i]. But there are plenty of them around too, and besides which, if they were a minority, they surely wouldn't be able to menace my life with red tape....

[Maximilianus]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1607609' date='Jul 24 2008, 05:40 PM']Skin tone or culture?[/quote]
Neither...both...skin color, facial features, skeletal make up, geographic region, and many other factors must be taken into account not just skin and culture.


It's interesting how skin tone is a big focus on when it comes to race.

I've seen Indians as dark skinned as Nigerians, with the exact same skin color, yet the Indian isn't considered black, at least not today. The English used to call Indians blacks, various dark skinned people that are not from Sub-Saharan Africa have been referred to black as well, based on skin appearance.

My brother is so much more darker skinned than I am that people never think we are related, are we separate races because of that difference?

By our country's standards how would you categorize a Melanesian from Guadalcanal? If you go by skin tone than you could categorize them as black, but that would denote that they were of African descent. If you go by geographic location you could say Pacific Islander, but that would imply Polynesian type people.

This race thing is crazy.

God determines your race, it's what us people do to categorize it that messes it all up.

[salterrae]

JM + JT

I think when they ask this question on standardized tests, such as Florida's FCAT, they want to know what cultural upbringing you had, something which [i]might[/i] have an influence on how well/poor you do, not what color your skin is, which has no effect.

Edited July 25, 2008 by salterrae