Ghosts

[pan!c139]

I guess...depends on how you look at it. If I was a secular pagan (in the best sense) I would think that ghosts would be just...ghosts.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1625570' date='Aug 12 2008, 06:11 PM']I agree with you, I have been disappointed as well... for the record I voted "other" just because my belief does not discount supernatural activity on the earth, it only attributes it to spirits we know exist (angels & demons)...[/quote]

I voted 'other' too Mainly for reasons I mentioned above.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1624724' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:04 PM']Yes, I believe in ghosts. I believe I have obtained some photographic evidence of them, as well.[/quote]
Might I possibly see?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='pan!c139' post='1625581' date='Aug 12 2008, 08:24 PM']I think they do exist, because I believe that they are souls from Purgatory. So in that sense, they are not "ghosts" but rather "souls".[/quote]

Check your etymology.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1625513' date='Aug 12 2008, 06:40 PM']I'm quite dissapointed with the poll. Only two (including me) said No to ghosts...[/quote]

Jesus didn't deny their existence either... maybe he did and it wasn't included in Scripture, but interesting nevertheless.

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1625513' date='Aug 12 2008, 06:40 PM']Indeed. This whole business of souls being oblivious to the fact they're dead, unfinished business and vengeful spirits is just another ploy of the devil to draw people to with their spiritual longing, which is truly fullfilled in being in union with Christ.[/quote]

How do we know that they are oblivious of the fact they're dead? Most of the ghosts stories I've heard are actually pretty harmless and tame. I believe we add most of the scary stuff because it's something unfamiliar to us and out of our control. There are some accounts of violent ghosts... those sound more like demonic activity.

Couldn't God allow the appearance of some ghosts to remind us that we have souls and an eternal existence?

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1625513' date='Aug 12 2008, 06:40 PM']For now, I say "tread lightly" to all you who believe in ghosts. If you want to believe in such silly things, then don't lose sight of God.[/quote]

Hmm... my belief in God and the existence of souls is why I find it reasonable to believe ghosts exist. Wouldn't it be odd if there weren't any?

Either way, I checked "Yes," but that's just my personal belief. I highly doubt anyone here is holding their belief in ghosts on the level of the Trinity.

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1625513' date='Aug 12 2008, 06:40 PM']As for the souls of purgatory being allowed to appear on earth, I personally wouldn't lump em in as ghosts or whatever. More like under the "Church suffering manifested on the physical plane" phenominon [/quote]

I understand this to be a plausible theory explaining ghosts from a Catholic perspective. Sounds like you associate ghosts with something tending towards evil. I can't speak for others, but to me they could be good, evil, or possibly indifferent. Maybe they really don't exist at all. Nothing in our faith rules out the option of believing in ghosts, long as they don't become a spiritual distraction from worshiping God.

[Nihil Obstat]

I think we can all agree on one thing, however... I'll just sum it up (because I want to get to 600 posts today. ) )
The issue of ghosts, as they are typically portrayed today, is open to debate in terms of theology, however it is safe to assume that some stories that we read about 'evil ghosts' may well be demons acting in the world.

Would I be correct in my summary?

[Selah]

Well, that, and in some instances, they are fake!

although this one is....strange...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9fcZDUvzM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9fcZDUvzM[/url]

[iggyjoan]

[quote name='Selah' post='1626386' date='Aug 13 2008, 07:24 PM']Well, that, and in some instances, they are fake!

although this one is....strange...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9fcZDUvzM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9fcZDUvzM[/url][/quote]


AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I [u] [b][i]HATE [/i][/b][/u] THOSE TYPES OF THINGS!!!!!!

Man! I jumped like 20 feet in the air!


(Edited to make "[b]hate [/b]"more bold)

Edited August 14, 2008 by iggyjoan

[Selah]

bwah haha

[Socrates]

The Church has traditionally taught that ghostly activity (not explainable by hoax or natural phenomena) is one of three things:

1) demonic activity (accounts for most "evil" or "scary" ghosts)
2) souls from purgatory (usually appearing for a specific good purpose, such as to complete some task unfulfilled while alive)
3) apparitions of the saints in heaven (to give a holy message - never "creepy" or "scary," except inspiring holy awe)

Some have speculated that purgatorial ghosts may "haunt" physical places they were unduly attached to in life until they are purged of their attachments.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1626489' date='Aug 13 2008, 08:52 PM']The Church has traditionally taught that ghostly activity (not explainable by hoax or natural phenomena) is one of three things:

1) demonic activity (accounts for most "evil" or "scary" ghosts)
2) souls from purgatory (usually appearing for a specific good purpose, such as to complete some task unfulfilled while alive)
3) apparitions of the saints in heaven (to give a holy message - never "creepy" or "scary," except inspiring holy awe)

Some have speculated that purgatorial ghosts may "haunt" physical places they were unduly attached to in life until they are purged of their attachments.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
do you have any docs? thanks!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1626489' date='Aug 13 2008, 11:52 PM']The Church has traditionally taught that ghostly activity (not explainable by hoax or natural phenomena) is one of three things:

1) demonic activity (accounts for most "evil" or "scary" ghosts)
2) souls from purgatory (usually appearing for a specific good purpose, such as to complete some task unfulfilled while alive)
3) apparitions of the saints in heaven (to give a holy message - never "creepy" or "scary," except inspiring holy awe)

Some have speculated that purgatorial ghosts may "haunt" physical places they were unduly attached to in life until they are purged of their attachments.[/quote]

#3 doesn't make much sense... when has anyone heard a ghost story in which some message about repentance and following Christ was given?

[Selah]

It wouldn't be a "ghost story" because those are usually meant to spook, aren't they? So, it would be an apparition or a vision I believe.

[Lounge Daddy]

Wow, I am really surprised at how many people on the poll are saying that they believe in ghosts.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1624646' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:08 PM']...but that would be almost exactly what Fr. Amorth says.
"There are no good spirits except angels, and no evil spirits except demons."[/quote]

That's a good quote. Father Gabriele Amorth [i]An Exorcist Tells His Story[/i]:

"These are the invention of spiritists, of followers of the occult, of those who espouse reincarnation, or of those who believe in 'wandering souls.' There are no good spirits other than angels; no bad spirits other than demons. Two Councils of the Church (Lyons and Florence) tell us that souls of those who die go immediately to heaven or to hell or to purgatory. The souls of the dead who are present during seances or the souls of the dead who are present in living bodies to torture them are non other than demons" (30).

And then Father Amorth does mention that God does allow a soul to return in very very rare and exceptional circumstances. And we see an example of that in The Bible when Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus as he was with Peter, James and John (Mark 9: 2-8).

Therefor, I do say that there is no such thing as "ghosts."

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1626827' date='Aug 14 2008, 11:45 AM']Wow, I am really surprised at how many people on the poll are saying that they believe in ghosts.



That's a good quote. Father Gabriele Amorth [i]An Exorcist Tells His Story[/i]:

"These are the invention of spiritists, of followers of the occult, of those who espouse reincarnation, or of those who believe in 'wandering souls.' There are no good spirits other than angels; no bad spirits other than demons. Two Councils of the Church (Lyons and Florence) tell us that souls of those who die go immediately to heaven or to hell or to purgatory. The souls of the dead who are present during seances or the souls of the dead who are present in living bodies to torture them are non other than demons" (30).

And then Father Amorth does mention that God does allow a soul to return in very very rare and exceptional circumstances. And we see an example of that in The Bible when Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus as he was with Peter, James and John (Mark 9: 2-8).

Therefor, I do say that there is no such thing as "ghosts."[/quote]

Yay, LD!

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1626727' date='Aug 14 2008, 10:04 AM']#3 doesn't make much sense... when has anyone heard a ghost story in which some message about repentance and following Christ was given?[/quote]


[quote name='Selah' post='1626728' date='Aug 14 2008, 10:06 AM']It wouldn't be a "ghost story" because those are usually meant to spook, aren't they? So, it would be an apparition or a vision I believe.[/quote]
The third one is talking about apparitions of saints - not the sort of thing one would tell in a campfire ghost story.
A "ghost" originally simply meant spirit. What this is talking about is the three possible explanations for a dead person appearing to the living. Anything which is not obviously a holy apparition (and even these must be discerned by those with spiritual authority) is not from heaven.

[DemonSlayer]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1626727' date='Aug 14 2008, 11:04 PM']#3 doesn't make much sense... when has anyone heard a ghost story in which some message about repentance and following Christ was given?[/quote]I would say that #2 makes less sense.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1626827' date='Aug 14 2008, 12:45 PM']That's a good quote. Father Gabriele Amorth [i]An Exorcist Tells His Story[/i]:

"These are the invention of spiritists, of followers of the occult, of those who espouse reincarnation, or of those who believe in 'wandering souls.' There are no good spirits other than angels; no bad spirits other than demons. Two Councils of the Church (Lyons and Florence) tell us that souls of those who die go immediately to heaven or to hell or to purgatory. The souls of the dead who are present during seances or the souls of the dead who are present in living bodies to torture them are non other than demons" (30).

And then Father Amorth does mention that God does allow a soul to return in very very rare and exceptional circumstances. And we see an example of that in The Bible when Elijah and Moses appeared to Jesus as he was with Peter, James and John (Mark 9: 2-8).

Therefor, I do say that there is no such thing as "ghosts."[/quote]

I find that I tend not to agree with the personal opinions of exorcists... at least two I've heard (Fr. Amorth and another) who rail against Harry Potter, and now this thing about ghosts. I think their vocation lends them to extreme opinions that aren't so well founded on reality. For example, how do we know that souls in purgatory could not be visible to us at times? As I pointed out before, Saul had a woman call up Samuel's soul. We know that the spiritual world manifests itself in our world all the time. I see no contradiction between the Counsils of Lyons and Florence and believing in the possibility that ghosts are sometimes visible to us.

I used that wording because we all believe ghosts are real because we believe in the existence of souls.

[quote name='DemonSlayer' post='1627921' date='Aug 15 2008, 06:29 AM']I would say that #2 makes less sense.[/quote]

Based also on the the Councils of Lyons and Florence?

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1624676' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:32 PM']Just thought I'd tell a story, when I was younger I believe I was 14, I was laying in my bed reading a Star Trek book in a room across from my parents room where everyone else of the family was on the bed reading a kids book.

As I was reading all of a sudden it got very cold in the room and I look up at the doorway and there was what I would describe as person a child who as dark as a shadow, up in the right hand corner of the door as if it was hanging from the ceiling looking at me. It was a very uneasy feeling to say the least. I just shot up and basically jump 20 feet into my parents room.

I know what I saw was really there, what it was I have no idea but it was shape exactly like a person and moved like one, it was the creepiest thing I can recall from my childhood.[/quote]

I have a theory about that.

First, there are familiar (family) spirits. Have anybody in your family practiced witchcraft in the past. Any Freemasons?

The reason I say this, there are parts of the Bible that say there are people who have an agreement with Death and Hell. It is my belief, those are spirits of people who have such an agreement, and they turn into demons when the die. It is a theory, and not 'Church Law', but just my impressions of such things.

Occasionally, I will see a dark shadow looking in on me, all the time. When I have such things happen, I am not afraid. I know God is faithful and is all powerful. I have the right to send any spirit that attacks me to the bottomless pit the moment it attacks.

[Nihil Obstat]

One thing to keep in mind: as far as I know, there is no official Church position (otherwise there wouldn't be any debate), so there's not a necessarily correct opinion at this point.