Ghosts

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1679176' date='Oct 16 2008, 03:30 PM']I've gone to Gettysburg once before - or it could've been twice. Regardless, we never saw anything. However, our tour guide was telling the story of a couple of tourists checking out the graveyard, and a whole bunch of civil war soldiers went marching by and crossed a bridge. They were so impressed they went to the "central house" or "museum" or "tour guide central" (lol I really don't know what to call it) and said how great the reinactment was. But they were told that there was no reinactment that day/at that time. [/quote]

Creepy!

That sent shivers down my spine!

[uppercut55]

i live in gettysburg. actually just outside the town. but anyway.

i think there is certainly a spiritual restlessness on the battlefeild but i don't know about actual ghosts. What i think is that people see a) demons trying to get them to delve into the paranormal and thus leading to satanic stuff. or b) souls who are in purgatory. i dont know the Chruch's stace onthe last one but i heard it somewhere.

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1649319' date='Sep 6 2008, 06:40 PM']I'd have to see a source. I have read some stuff...
Well I'll start off by saying that you can't make a good horro movie based on a true story without stretching the truth. Some do it more than others.
What I heard though, with references (although in all fairness I can't give you any either. ) is that a lot of what was in the movies and book (there was a book, right?) was generally held to be fairly accurate.
Now that I think harder though... hm... Did the man who had lived in the house write a book?
I should stop talking. I don't actually know what I'm talking about. [/quote]

HA!! I found it!

[url="http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4020"]http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4020[/url]

Interesting site, all around. But this is the article that I read that was specific to Amityville

[jeffpugh]

Cow of Shame! Long time, no see!

[HisChildForever]

Maybe we'll see ghosts tonight.

[Theologian in Training]

My Q&A in the bulletin a couple of weeks back. Thought you might enjoy it!

It would seem that, especially during this month, you cannot turn on the TV without seeing some show about some supernatural occurrence, be it a haunting, a possession, or some other show out to prove the existence or non-existence of ghosts or other “paranormal” activity. I must admit that it piqued my interest and so I watched one of those shows. Personally, it seemed like a budget horror flick with a lot of technology, complete with the webcams, high tech listening devices and the like. I pretty much gave up on the show when they broke out the Ouija board, consulted psychics and all the other stuff the Church warns against (CCC 2116). However, I would be lying, if I did not admit that it caused me to wonder what the Church actually teaches with regards to ghosts, and I am sure there are more than a few of you out there who have wondered the same. Well, it turns out the Church itself doesn’t say much, however, there are many great Catholic writers and thinkers who have come up with certain ideas and theories. Let me just stress that before going any further, these are ideas and theories, but, it is clear, they have been well thought out. So, that brings us to our first question.

[b]Do ghosts exist?[/b]

As Jimmy Akin, a great Catholic apologist points out the term “ghost” is German derivative of the Latin “spirit.” Now, we believe in spirits, those are what we call angels and demons, but there is more to it than just that. There is an excellent website that discusses the “7 types of ghosts,” (citation on bottom) yet, before doing so, establishes what we know about spirits, especially in a biblical sense, the entire article is too long to reiterate, but the following are the conclusions he reaches:

1) We know that ghosts do not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39)
2) We know that the dead can communicate with the living. (1 Sam 28; Sirach 46:20)
3) We know that at least in some context allowed by God, the dead can be conjured in some fashion. (1 Sam 28)
4) We know that it is possible for the dead to appear on the earth (Matt 72; 1 Sam 28)
5) We know that is may be possible for the dead to not only appear on the earth, but appear to people and talk with them (Luke 16:27-31; 1 Sam 28)
6) We know that it is possible for the living to bi-locate (Rev. 17:3; 21:10; 2 Cor 12:2)
7) We know that it is possible for spirits to communicate in dreams and the person to have a bodily reaction to the visitation (Job 4:15)

Given this, there seems to be ample evidence that indeed ghosts do exist. However, there is a precaution here, and the biggest is how this works with Church teaching.

[b]How does this work with Church teaching?[/b]

We know that when we depart from this world we are instantly judged and from there it is decided where we are to go, Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. Now, the first two places are quite definitive, however, Purgatory is less so, all we know is that it is a place of purgation, a time in which to make ourselves ready and worthy to enter Heaven. So, in this sense, there is no need of “crossing over,” because it has already occurred, however, as Jimmy Akin, Peter Kreeft and others have pointed out, God may allow a person to return to earth to complete that “purgation” by means of soliciting prayers, as an exorcist once explained it to me, or the accounts of may saints have explained, because that person is still too attached to material goods and not ready to let them go or because the person has not yet realized or come to terms with their own death.

Now, granted, this is all conjecture, but also not outside of the realm of possibility. The difficulty, however, is how we reconcile that with malevolent spirits, those known as “poltergeists” which, in German means “noisy spirit.” That is where it gets “spiritually dangerous,” because then you are not dealing with a loved one but a demon, and that is most likely why the Church has not spoken much about the existence or non-existence of ghosts and the spirit world in general.

If you would like to learn more, I highly recommend the books [i]Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Heaven[/i] and [i]Angels and Demons[/i] by Peter Kreeft and the following website from which a I gained a lot of understanding myself
[url="http://www.saint-mike.org/spcdc/library/7ghosts.asp"]http://www.saint-mike.org/spcdc/library/7ghosts.asp[/url]

God bless,

Fr. Brian

[Desert Walker]

In my opinion there are two kinds of "ghosts."

1. Bad spirits (demons and perhaps damned souls but I'm very skeptical about this)
This kind manifest themselves in a great variety of ways. In some cases they will pretend to be a deceased person who is identifiable. In other cases a mere sound without physical cause is heard. Encounters with them, however, are always, on some level, negative (spiritually, emotionally, physically).

2. Good spirits (angels, inhabitants of purgatory, the blessed in Heaven)
This kind also manifest themselves in a great variety of ways. Padre Pio once encountered a deceased brother cleaning the sanctuary because he had been neglectful of this duty in bodily life. Some people have been physically assisted by angels.

Personally I have experienced two instances of a physical effect with a completely unapparent physical cause. Both were shatteringly frightening at the time. Both occurred in my childhood. Both occurred before my house had been blessed. Nothing of the kind has happened since my house was blessed.

I cannot, however, count the number of times that I knew some good spirit had saved me from something bad or had attempted to save me from something bad that happened to me.

[Ash Wednesday]

I think stories of residual hauntings are interesting -- historical events that are replayed time and time again -- but it's something that can be related to science and just an aspect of time and dimension that we haven't gotten our heads around, not something of a spiritual event. So seeing ghost soldiers in battle or a person that appears to "not know their dead" -- would be just something residual and not someone's soul. So they are not really necessarily spiritual in nature. More like the way sound echoes, or a person's warmth is still felt after they get up from a chair.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Ash Wednesday

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

I disagree. I think it would be something of a spiritual nature. I was talking about this recently with the Abbot of the Monastery that runs my college. He said that one could assert that perhaps the souls that one experiences as a ghost could be souls in Purgatory that God allows some people to see in order that we may pray for those specific souls. We experience them in areas that played a large influence in their lives so that our prayers may be more specific. These are what some classify as "benevolent hauntings." "Malignant hauntings" can be demons sent to distract us from God and be just another part of spiritual warfare.

It seems odd to me to assert that these are just echoes of people who lived once. I think that maybe these men had such a influential event in their lives such as Gettysburg or another such event that they become very attached to a specific part of the Earth. I think it might be reasonable to assume that God would allow them to be so attached to a specific place and so as part of Purgatory they have to learn to let go of this part of the world and attach themselves to God instead, and we experience this as what is termed as a "residual haunting" in order that we may pray for them or that graces may be given to them in those events.

[Spamity Calamity]

I have always kind of wondered what Catholicism says about ghosts but this thread seems to show there isnt much to be said about it "officially" I guess. The paranormal is kind of an interest to me I spend a few hours a week reading books on the technical apects of trying to capture evidence of ghosts. Since everybody is putting down their ideas Ill put down mine.

There are demons and angels, spirits that never had a human body to begin with. I think that visitations by them are rare and terrifying to behold if a demon and probably overwhelmingly awesome if an angel. I also believe in the traditional ghost idea of spirits of deceased people stuck on our earthly plane. I dont know why this is the case but I dont see how this has to conflict with Christianity. Maybe Im just being naieve. But why cant a spirit be forced to wander the earthly plane as a form of purgatory? Maybe until they come to some conclusion or something is resolved. I think this might be the case because the majority of EVP's seem to be from people that died less than 200 years ago. This is all speculation of course dont take me seriously on any ot this. After all I have a can of spam as my avatar.

One other thing I wanted to note. I listen to a lot of paranormal podcasts and most of the ghost hunters are not terribly religous. Theyll claim to be "spiritual" but Ive always viewed that as a cop out excuse for their anything goes, pick and choose, store bought new age beliefs. They usually posit a sterotype that christians put all ghostly activity as demons but I dont think thats the case and judging from this thread I think I am correct.

[dominicansoul]

The other night, me and a friend went to a Catholic cemetary to pray for the souls of the faithful departed.

Walking back towards her car, her automatic doors unlocked without her even touching the remote on her car keys!

We just looked at each other...but i thought to myself....could this be some sort of ghost that followed us from the cemetary?

[TIWW]

Hard to not believe in them when those who have left their bodies behind, rejoin us in spirit from time to time.

When the Sacred heart of jesus came to Margaret Mary, or the "Immaculate Conception" visited Bernadette, they were not there in BODY, they were there in "Spirit"

When my noncatholic friends try to question my beliefs about Apparitions of various kinds, I have to reply, when you grow up in the 50's & 60's & mary is showing up, talking to these children ( usualy in Europe somwehre) we just accept that it happens.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1698983' date='Nov 10 2008, 03:31 PM']The other night, me and a friend went to a Catholic cemetary to pray for the souls of the faithful departed.

Walking back towards her car, her automatic doors unlocked without her even touching the remote on her car keys!

We just looked at each other...but i thought to myself....could this be some sort of ghost that followed us from the cemetary?[/quote]

Or, a thank you for your prayers

[cheryl]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1624440' date='Aug 11 2008, 05:34 PM']+J.M.J.+
I was recently told that there is no such thing as ghosts (from a Catholic perspective). I'm not sure what to believe, so what do you think? From a Catholic perspective, is there such a thing as ghosts?[/quote]

I would agree with others insomuch as there is at least a history of believing that "ghosts" are actually the souls in purgatory. Remember Hamlet's father's appearance in Act 1, Scene 4:

[quote]I am thy father's spirit, Doom'd for a certain term to walk the night, And for the day confined to fast in fires, Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature Are burnt and purged away. But that I am forbid To tell the secrets of my prison-house, I could a tale unfold whose lightest word Would harrow up thy soul, freeze thy young blood, Make thy two eyes, like stars, start from their spheres, Thy knotted and combined locks to part And each particular hair to stand on end, Like quills upon the fretful porpentine: But this eternal blazon must not be To ears of flesh and blood.[/quote]


To my knowledge there are five different types of hauntings.

1)The first is residual. These are the "ghosts" that go through walls, seem to talk the same paths or do the same things every time they're seen and are oblivious to you. These are not actual spirits. But as the name implies, they're "memories" if you will, from the past, that as strange as it sounds, were "video-taped" by time and space and keeps replaying itself.

2)The second kind are demonic. They can appear as deceased family members or whatever. But they eventual show their true colors by just overall negativity. For example, they'll sometimes try to wear a person down, through depression ect. They will inflict bodily harm, try to cause discord between members of the family. And if they can wear a person down enough to control them, they may try to then actually possess them.

3)The third kind are poltergeist. Sometimes this can be demonic activity, but the prevalent opinion, is that this sort of activity ie objects moving, lights turning off and on, are not caused by any spirit at all, but by a living person (usually troubled).

4)The fourth kind are actually human spirits. Some are evil and can be confused with the demonic. Some are good...you might say...but usually seems to not want to be there, and would rather "move on", but something is holding them back. This would fit into the idea of purgatory. In CS Lewis' The Great Divorce, when souls first arrived in heaven they were prompted by others to let go of their sins, some did, some didn't, some were scared too ect. But until they did, they couldn't "move on". Purgatory may be the state in which souls still attached to this earth, or their sins, or whatever, are not able to "move on" because of these attachments, even though they desperately want to. And it's not until they let go that they are able to "move on".

5) A fifth kind of ghost, are really neither demons, figments, or deceased persons, but are earthly creatures that appear less tangible than we are. This is where stories of fairies and leprechauns ect. originated from. They seem to show some degree of intelligence and can get nasty and play tricks. They usually appear as swarms of light.

------------------------
None of this is my personal beliefs. This is just want I've come to learn from my own personal studies. I voted "yes" on the poll, because I do believe people are seeing something, but what that something is, I can't say and you will never find me in a haunted house.

Edited November 17, 2008 by cheryl

[Nihil Obstat]

The ghost thread rises from the grave to feed on the posts of the living!!

(It wasn't me, I promise.)

[elizabeth09]

I have watch Ghost Hunter, but sill do not believe in ghost.

[goldenchild17]

I watch ghost hunters (just for fun, don't actually really believe they find much of anything) but I definitely believe ghosts are very real.

[whatsup]

[quote]A. GHOSTS OF THE FIRST KIND: The first kind Kreeft calls the “sad ones” or “wispy ones”. These Ghosts seem to be working out some unfinished business of some sort, or suffering some purgatorial purification.

He says that these Ghosts would seem to be the ones who just barely made it into Purgatory, who feel little or no joy yet and who need to learn many painful lessons about their past lives on earth. God, in his compassion, may realize that to allow the person to get through Purgatory that it may be useful for them to learn some lessons on this earth.

B. GHOSTS OF THE SECOND KIND: A Second kind may be some of these purgatorial ghosts who might have been so material minded in their earthly life that they can't detach themselves from these Material places or possessions. God may allow them to remain attached as they work out their need to “let go”.

C. GHOSTS OF THE THIRD KIND: A third type might be those who don't yet realize they are dead. Again, in God's compassion, I can see why He would allow a spirit to linger for a short while so that they may realize their fate before leaving this world completely. In both the “second kind” and “third kind” God could, of course, force the person to let go of the material place or to come on through the “gate” and not linger. But a compassionate Father can also allow for a “little” tolerance to help the person to adjust.

D. GHOSTS OF A FOURTH KIND: A Fourth type are the malicious and deceptive spirits. These are the one who probably appear at séances and the like and are most likely from hell. And most likely are demons disguised as dead loved ones and not the human persons themselves.

E. GHOSTS OF A FIFTH KIND: A Fifth type are the bright, happy spirits of dead friends and family who appear unbidden at God's will, not ours, with messages of hope and love. They seem to come from heaven. These type may come to a loved one to say goodbye or to comfort after a funeral for example. Or these type may come to a relative or friend in "great" need. There are very trustworthy empirical and psychological evidence for these phenomena.

F. GHOSTS OF A SIXTH KIND: (updated: 9/4/08) A sixth type involves the ghost performing a certain scene repetitively. For example, a ghost of this type may go from the top of the stairs to the bottom and then disappear. This may happen over and over again. It never changes. The Ghost never interacts with anyone, and we cannot interact with it. It never changes facial expression nor does it ever acknowledge anything around it.

There are many theories to explain this phenomenon, but no real explanations. A popular notion is the concept of a “Residual Ghost”, which I originally posited in 1999. Since that time, after a more careful study of physics changed my position on this. The notion of a Residual Ghost is well expressed recently by Jason Hawes of the Atlantic Paranormal Society: that “A residual haunting is like having an impression made in time. The entity may seem to be lost in a time warp. The spirit really isn't even there, only the energy is.” The Glossary on their website gives a more formal definition:

Psychic imprint of a scene which is repeatedly played out, where the witness of such phenomenon essentially is peering into the past. The ghostly participants of these time-displacements often seem unaware of their living observers.

There are significant problems with this theory. The physics of matter and energy makes this theory nearly impossible. Cody Polston, Founder and President of the Southwest Ghost Hunter's Association, gives a very good and succinct scientific explanation of why the Residual Haunting is implausible in his article, Residual hauntings, a flawed hypothesis.

Ockham's razor (“All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best”) advises us to avoid complex explanations. The theory of Residual Ghosts creates all sorts of problems that must be resolved before it can be plausible. A more plausible and simpler explanation is that “residual ghosts” are actually demonic in origin.

We know from cases throughout the history of the Church that one of Satan's tactics is to instill an unhealthy curiosity into things concerning the paranormal. To experience a “residual ghost” usually creates an interest and curiosity on the part of the experiencer in the paranormal. Sometimes the experiencer will further explore contact with the spirit world or other dangerous explorations into the paranormal. God warns us of the danger to our soul by trying to contact the dead. Our Lord calls these activities an abomination (Deut. 18:9-12). Satan would love to inspire such curiosity and to lure a person into his sandbox.

G. GHOSTS OF THE SEVENTH KIND: Some “apparent” ghostly apparitions or effects may be the bi-location of the living...the Astral projections of living people. This can be postulated from scriptural evidence (Rev. 17:3; 21:10; and 2 Cor 12:2), and from verified reports of bi-location of people like Padre Pio.[/quote]

this is according to this source [url="http://www.saint-mike.org/spcdc/library/7ghosts.asp"]http://www.saint-mike.org/spcdc/library/7ghosts.asp[/url]

[HisChildForever]

I had a creepy experience last Sunday. I was home by myself (rest of the fam went to younger brother's basketball game, I was studying all day for exams) and the stereo in my brothers' room turned on, BY ITSELF, to a classical music station. First of all, my brothers do not listen to classical music. Second of all, the stereo does not have such a feature. It cannot be programed to turn on like an alarm clock radio. The volume was pretty low, which is also weird...it was just very eerie. I had gone into the kitchen to get something to eat, the house is pretty much dark, and I hear this soft music coming from down the hall. The stereo was definitely off before this little incident because our rooms are next door. I would have heard it.

[HollyDolly]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1624440' date='Aug 11 2008, 04:34 PM']+J.M.J.+
I was recently told that there is no such thing as ghosts (from a Catholic perspective). I'm not sure what to believe, so what do you think? From a Catholic perspective, is there such a thing as ghosts?[/quote]

I believe there is.After all, Catholics believe in the bible, and the bible mentions, angels, demons and ghosts. In the OT, I think it's David maybe who goes to see the Witch of Endor who summons the ghost of Saul who is then asked about a battle and it's out come I think.
Also After Jesus has risen from the dead in the NT, He encounters the apostles.
They can't believe what they are seeing that it is really Jesus. He tells them he is no ghost or spirit
and to touch Him. St. Thomas does and realizes it is truly Our Lord.It's from this event that we get the phrase "Doubting Thomas".
If Our Lord tells the apostles that he is not a ghost or spirit, then there must be such things,else why would Jesus mention them?