Arrested While Wearing A Phatmass Shirt?

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='StColette' post='1641740' date='Aug 29 2008, 02:07 PM']lol If I were anywhere near you believe me I would be serious, though Micah would probably kill me, not really [/quote]

actually, the September 29 events will be all over the country (God-willing)...

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1641733' date='Aug 29 2008, 02:02 PM']September 29, feast of St. Michael, St. Gabriel, and St. Raphael - you busy? [/quote]

please, I never plan that far in advance. I don't even know what I'm doing today . I'm available. What's going on then?

[Guest KevinSymonds]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1641401' date='Aug 29 2008, 11:26 AM']He cooperated with the police because, again, this was a move to get the message out.

The night before, many violent protesters had been arrested at the DNC. Randall called ahead to let the police know we didn't have weapons, we weren't violent, we wouldn't be resisting arrest... that this was peaceful civil disobedience. The arresting officers were really wonderful.[/quote]

That is just not reason enough. It still sounds like someone trying to get attention. I do not see this as being a just action. Furthermore, I am thoroughly disgusted at the Neo-Conservative Catholic attitude of, "[i]Oh, croutons, I feel bad that I didn't get arrested[/i]."

Does anyone else experience horror and moral dread at such a statement? It is painfully obvious that this statement of desiring to get arrested represents an uninformed faith.

Yes, I said it, an UNINFORMED faith.

Someone else already said something to the effect that God would not want them to commit an evil to bring about good. It was not unjust for the Democrats to congregate in Denver and hold their political convention--the fact of many Democrat's views being morally repulsive notwithstanding. This was a political, not moral, event, thus it was not immoral to congregate in Denver. Furthermore, there were no abortions happening in the convention center. Terry could well have been justified if there was an "abortion convention" with abortions occurring on the spot but such was not the case.

Randall Terry was, therefore, out of his league by desiring to make a simple statement that he knew was ultimately going to end in arrest. Randall Terry was, by all indications, acting immoral himself. Added to this fact is that if what I say is true, theologically speaking, then Randall Terry would have to answer for the scandal he caused.

Scandal? What scandal?

Randall Terry got kids involved and marketed this protest to them, according to the article, as being able to get them into the history books someday--not that they might save a few babies, of which there were none in danger at the moment of the convention's happening. Terry's efforts would have been better served at the local abortion mill in Denver at the same time as the convention. I hear Denver opened a decent-sized mill recently.

Terry, quite literally, was the cause for scandal for these kids because he misled them both in how he marketed the protest to them as well as not representing a legitimate moral object. What idea of morality and faith did he just give these kids, not to mention others?

Regretfully, that is not all she wrote on the matter. There is an element of religious persecution in play here and I will address it head on. From the statements made here on phatmass, it sounds to me that these people WANTED the persecution.

Do you think that our forebears in the Faith WANTED Diocletian to persecute them so they could get martyred and go to heaven?

I pray no one says "Yes" to that question.

No Saint in the history of the Church has ever set themselves up for martyrdom if they could have avoided it. Have some desired martyrdom? Yes. However, there is nothing to indicate that they deliberately went out to set the stage for persecution that led to their martyrdom. No Christian went to Diocletian, slandered the Faith and shoved him into persecuting the Faith only to then have that Christian profess the Faith openly and get killed.

Insofar as these Denver protestors wanted the persecution (and all indicators are that some even desired it), they have committed a grave error and were the cause for scandal to the Faith at large.

Then Christians wonder why the liberals have such a warped view of Christianity.

Look at its witnesses.

-Kevin Symonds

[CoffeeCatholic]

was this posted already?
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Uw8cs6ASo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Uw8cs6ASo[/url]

[CoffeeCatholic]

and WOW I didn't know my own FR. Tom was there!!!

[CoffeeCatholic]

and Fr. Jeremy! Sorry, i should have watched the whole video before posting.

[goldenchild17]

very interesting vid. Actually I think both parties (protesters and cops) handled the situation pretty well.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='KevinSymonds' post='1641896' date='Aug 29 2008, 05:54 PM']That is just not reason enough. It still sounds like someone trying to get attention. I do not see this as being a just action. ...[/quote]
Is it possible that the Holy Spirit could move someone in a way that you do not understand? I'm not talking about Terry specifically, I just mean in a general sense. You seem to be saying that [i]if[/i] a person acts in a manner differently than you think they should, [i]then[/i] that person must be ignorant of God's will.


Will you also condemn the sisters who conducted an illegal protest?
[quote](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A17346-2003May20&notFound=true)
[b]For Three Nuns, A Prairie Protest And a Price to Pay[/b]
Sisters Reconciled to Prison For Actions at Missile Site

By Evelyn Nieves
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 21, 2003; Page A01

GREELEY, Colo. -- After seven months in a dank basement jail, the three nuns, now convicted felons awaiting sentencing, were taking in the welcoming sun of the prairie for the first time.

At the same time, there they were, during this precious stint of freedom before their July sentencing date, visiting the nuclear missile site in northeastern Colorado where they got into trouble in the first place.

"Here's where we cut the link," said Sister Ardeth Platte, holding the chain that had been locked onto the first of two fences surrounding a Minuteman III missile silo buried in the dry, brittle ground. "Then we did the same thing to the other fence."

Then, on the morning of Oct. 6, 2002 -- in an act that the federal government, and the Denver jury that convicted them last month, called a crime worthy of as much as 30 years in prison -- the Roman Catholic nuns entered the inner enclosure around the missile silo and stayed a while. Using ball-peen hammers, they tapped on the silo's 110-ton concrete lid and on the rusty tracks on which the lid would slide open for a launch. They poured their blood in the shape of crosses from plastic baby bottles onto the silo walls and the tracks. They sang a song ("Sacred our land, sacred our water, sacred the sky, holy and true . . ."). And they prayed for world peace.

The Dominican sisters call what they did a symbolic act of disarmament against a weapon of mass extinction. The government called it injury to, interference with and obstruction of the national defense, along with damage of more than $1,000 to government property. Prosecutors said they will ask U.S. District Judge Robert Blackburn to sentence the nuns to five to eight years in federal prison and tens of thousands of dollars in fines. Although not the maximum, those sentences, the nuns' lawyers say, would constitute one of the harshest punishments ever handed down for what amounts to a trespassing case in which the gravest damage done was to a piece of chain-link fence.

Defense lawyers say there are ample grounds for appeal, including the testimony of two Air Force colonels -- both prosecution witnesses -- who said the women had never interfered with or obstructed national defense. The prosecution had argued that it was the nuns' intent that made them guilty.

But the nuns, who asked God to bless the jury after the verdict, say they are prepared to accept their prison terms, however much they disagree that they committed a major crime. "We had no criminal intent at any level," said Platte, a member, with Gilbert, of Jonah House, a faith-based activist commune in Baltimore.

"When we went to this site," added Sister Jackie Hudson, a tiny woman with large, round glasses and a crew cut, "we went to symbolically stop a crime from happening and to uphold international law."

John Suthers, the U.S. attorney for the District of Colorado, said the nuns had other, legal ways to register their dissent. "The defendants in this case have demonstrated a blatant disregard for the laws of the United States," he said in a statement to The Washington Post. "No other country on Earth provides as many avenues for peaceful and lawful protest as does the United States. But the defendants insist on unlawfully entering onto highly sensitive government installations, damaging government property, and interfering with government operations."

Hudson, who is 68, Platte, who is 66, and Sister Carole Gilbert, 55, are still stunned that they were found guilty of sabotage. So are thousands of people who have written to them in the past several weeks. Jurors in the case have said it was clear the nuns were guilty, but the sisters and their supporters view their convictions as part of the nationalistic fervor that swept the United States during the Iraq war, when dissenters were ridiculed, threatened and attacked. Their trial, during the first week of April, coincided with the peak of the war.

To the nuns, who consider it their mission to fight against war at all costs, this Minuteman missile silo, named N8, was the scene of a government crime: harboring weapons of annihilation poised for a first strike. It was their duty to expose it.

"It feels very powerful to be back here today," Platte said, gesturing toward the missile site during a visit earlier this month. "It feels like we're rejecting it again, and we will continue to reject it again and again and again."

Had they made a move beyond that first fence encircling the missile silo, they would have faced 10 consecutive years added to the sentences they will formally receive on July 25. Two soldiers in an SUV watched them from a rise in the road a quarter-mile away, and ranchers from nearby farms stopped their pickup trucks to watch the nuns and warn them not to trespass.

The sisters sang and prayed outside the site. This time, they had no intention of getting arrested. They left jail on April 30 on personal-recognizance bonds they had refused to sign in October because they would not agree to stay out of trouble during wartime.

Now, they said, they needed their freedom to say goodbye to friends and family, give away their possessions and strengthen themselves spiritually for their first long stays in prison.

"Jackie and I are looking at this as possible life sentences," Platte said. "We have to attend to medical needs and say goodbyes. We lost five good friends while we were in prison these months, including one person I consider a mother to me."

After two weeks in Colorado, where they spoke to church, school and peace groups, the nuns, all former teachers who studied with the Grand Rapids., Mich., Dominican sisters, returned home last week. For Hudson, a well-known peace activist in the Northwest, that means the Ground Zero Center for Nonviolent Action in Poulsbo, Wash., and a home in Bremerton, Wash.

For Platte, a former city council member and mayor pro tem of Saginaw, Mich., and Gilbert, also from Michigan, home is now Jonah House, which sits in one of Baltimore's poorest neighborhoods. Co-founded in 1973 by the former Roman Catholic priest Philip Berrigan and his wife, Elizabeth McAlister, Jonah House, with about eight to 12 residents, is best known for feeding poor people and committing ongoing acts of civil disobedience -- or, as the participants call it, civil resistance, because they consider their actions legal under international law.

Berrigan, who spent a total of 11 years in prison since his first actions during the Vietnam War, died in December of cancer, while the nuns were in prison.

While there, they befriended and ministered to their fellow inmates. Many of the women, they said, had been charged with far lesser crimes than theirs and had not been offered personal-recognizance bonds. "We stayed," said Gilbert, "in part out of solidarity with these women."

All three have served time in prison before, a few months here and there, on misdemeanor charges. They belong to the Plowshares Movement, an international disarmament movement that Berrigan, inspired by Isaiah 2:4 to "beat swords into plowshares," began two decades ago.

Theirs was a classic Plowshares action. The actions are characterized by the use of hammers to symbolically -- or actually -- disarm parts of U.S. first-strike nuclear weapons systems, and blood to represent the deaths such weapons can cause. Plowshares actions are also long-planned and public. The nuns spent nine months plotting their action, scouting several missile sites before settling on N8 because it is near a main road.

In 2000, they had done their first Plowshares action, at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs. With two other nuns, they struck a grounded Marine fighter jet with a hammer and threw a bottle of their blood on the aircraft's landing gear. All charges in that case were eventually dropped.

Walter L. Gerash, a veteran Denver lawyer who has helped defend many such cases pro bono, is still fuming that he lost the nuns' case. "One of the first casualties of war is the truth," said Gerash, who has three motions pending before the court. Two argue for a dismissal of the case on the grounds of numerous trial errors and a lack of evidence. The third asks for a mistrial because a juror was seen outside the deliberations room during deliberations.

The nuns plan on making the most of their freedom. Before visiting the missile silo, they were the star attraction at a peace rally in Greeley's Lincoln Park. Fewer than two dozen people were there, including the nuns. Across the park, half a dozen people holding four-foot-long U.S. flags and signs that read, "Pacifists create Terrorists," shouted, "Down with Communism" and "Go back with the Communists" as people spoke. But the nuns were thrilled to hear that 50 high school students here had walked out of classes to protest the war, despite strong pressure from their peers and teachers.

"What wonderful courage these young people have," Gilbert said, beaming.

Later, at the missile site, the sisters ended up in a debate with a 73-year-old rancher, Doris Williams, who takes care of the property that holds N8.

"Look," Williams said. "This is not worth going to jail for. You should be protesting all the treaties that the government has broken with the Indians."

"Oh, we have!" Platte said.

"And you should be worrying about all the terrorists around the world," Williams said.

"We do!" Gilbert said.

After a half-hour's discussion, Williams and the nuns hugged and wished each other well. "You girls stay out of trouble!" Williams called out.

A Weld County deputy sheriff who stopped by said the same.

"I really wish you the best of luck," said the deputy, who did not want his name used. The nuns shook his hand and asked him to say hello to "Monty," a deputy who had guarded them at the Weld County jail for two weeks before the federal government took over the case and transferred them to another jail.

Afterward, on the drive back to Denver, where they are staying at a convent, the nuns talked about all the wonderful people they had met. What a great day, they said. Platte, with a wry grin, said it left her in "shock and awe."[/quote]

[Guest KevinSymonds]

[quote name='tgoldson' post='1642405' date='Aug 30 2008, 11:57 AM']Is it possible that the Holy Spirit could move someone in a way that you do not understand? I'm not talking about Terry specifically, I just mean in a general sense. You seem to be saying that [i]if[/i] a person acts in a manner differently than you think they should, [i]then[/i] that person must be ignorant of God's will.


Will you also condemn the sisters who conducted an illegal protest?[/quote]

In response to the above:

1) How the Holy Spirit moves people is not what is on the table at this time. What is up for discussion is how these people in Denver acted and they acted unjustly and scandalously, which is not indicative of the Holy Spirit.

2) Let me ask you a question about your question concerning the Dominican nun article. Do you think that because these women are nuns that I would not "dare" to criticize their actions? That somehow because they are religious (and rather unorthodox-sounding if I got the tone of the article correct) that they are above reproach?

I suppose I'll get branded a flaming liberal now.

-KJS

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='KevinSymonds' post='1642708' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:55 PM']In response to the above:

1) How the Holy Spirit moves people is not what is on the table at this time. What is up for discussion is how these people in Denver acted and they acted unjustly and scandalously, which is not indicative of the Holy Spirit.

2) Let me ask you a question about your question concerning the Dominican nun article. Do you think that because these women are nuns that I would not "dare" to criticize their actions? That somehow because they are religious (and rather unorthodox-sounding if I got the tone of the article correct) that they are above reproach?

I suppose I'll get branded a flaming liberal now.

-KJS[/quote]

How would you have wanted it to be done? Let FQI know, and she'll tell her friends so the next time, there will be no questioning their intentions. Give her specifics, she wouldn't want to offend you and any one else who find her actions reprehensible. This way she'll know for the next time.

From what I see using common sense, is that the group wanted to get attention for the unborn being slaughtered in our country/ They wanted to grab some attention for those who do not have a voice at. all. And they targeted the Democratic convention because the Democrats have taken it upon their party to fight with all they have to keep the slaughter of the innocents legal.

If I had been there, I woulda taken it inside. Walk right into the lions den. I wonder what they woulda done to me then? From what I saw happen to a journalist right outside the convention, who was charged with "blocking" the entrance and was subsequently slammed to the ground, I wouldn't be surprised if I woulda taken some blows!

...all for the Glory of God!

[Guest KevinSymonds]

[quote name='dominicansoul' post='1642725' date='Aug 30 2008, 09:07 PM']How would you have wanted it to be done? Let FQI know, and she'll tell her friends so the next time, there will be no questioning their intentions. Give her specifics, she wouldn't want to offend you and any one else who find her actions reprehensible. This way she'll know for the next time.

From what I see using common sense, is that the group wanted to get attention for the unborn being slaughtered in our country/ They wanted to grab some attention for those who do not have a voice at. all. And they targeted the Democratic convention because the Democrats have taken it upon their party to fight with all they have to keep the slaughter of the innocents legal.

If I had been there, I woulda taken it inside. Walk right into the lions den. I wonder what they woulda done to me then? From what I saw happen to a journalist right outside the convention, who was charged with "blocking" the entrance and was subsequently slammed to the ground, I wouldn't be surprised if I woulda taken some blows!

...all for the Glory of God![/quote]

Sometimes it is hard to tell when people are being sarcastic.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='KevinSymonds' post='1642708' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:55 PM']In response to the above:

1) How the Holy Spirit moves people is not what is on the table at this time. What is up for discussion is how these people in Denver acted and they acted unjustly and scandalously, which is not indicative of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]
You are wrong. Go look up scandal in the dictionary.
[quote name='KevinSymonds' post='1642708' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:55 PM']2) Let me ask you a question about your question concerning the Dominican nun article. Do you think that because these women are nuns that I would not "dare" to criticize their actions? That somehow because they are religious (and rather unorthodox-sounding if I got the tone of the article correct) that they are above reproach?[/quote]
I think that your opinion is solely your opinion and not representative of the Church.
[quote name='KevinSymonds' post='1642708' date='Aug 30 2008, 07:55 PM']I suppose I'll get branded a flaming liberal now.[/quote]By whom?

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='KevinSymonds' date='Aug 29 2008, 05:54 PM' post='1641896'

As you seem most intent on basing your comments on that report, all i feel like saying in response is, if you would like to talk about Catholic scandal in the abortion issue, please kindly contact Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden. Thanks.

--------------

Just to clear something up for the anyone else reading what Kevin kept saying about Terry influencing "kids" in this thread - well, the youngest of the 13 arrestees was 27; we were all free-thinking adults.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1639443' date='Aug 27 2008, 11:01 AM']We were arrested for obstructing streets and passageways, and for interference. It was a Randall Terry thing - 13 of us were arrested, including two priests [b]and a Baptist pastor.[/b][/quote]
That made me lawl.

[quote name='StColette' post='1639465' date='Aug 27 2008, 11:27 AM']lol Dr. Miravalle told our class a story once about an anti-abortion protest he and some of the faculty and friars of Franciscan were involved in lol Apparently they cemented themselves to the ground (practically) with 20 members from faculty/friars of FUS and about 20 from Protestant Churches. lol They were arrested, including Fr. Scanlan lol and Scott Hahn. Apparently they said they were going to be jailed for 6 months, but somehow got released in 3 days lol During those three days they held Mariology Classes and Biblical Studies classes with the non-Catholic folks lol[/quote]
awesome! plz tell the story!

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1639477' date='Aug 27 2008, 11:40 AM']Actually, officers of the law who must enforce city violations could arrest two priests...


The arresting officers were fantastic - very, very kind to us. i was arrested by Tiger Woods.[/quote]
do tell!

[quote name='dUSt' post='1639710' date='Aug 27 2008, 04:00 PM']Anybody who can get a phatmass shirt into a newspaper or on a major newspaper website gets a free shirt!!![/quote]
I'd better order a shirt... maybe I can somehow get it all over the big TO without doing anything illegal...

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1640479' date='Aug 28 2008, 01:29 PM']Only here would being arrested actually be considered a good thing [/quote]
Indeed. I'm glad you're finding the humour in this as well. This is pretty awesome stuff, too.

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1641401' date='Aug 29 2008, 11:26 AM']He cooperated with the police because, again, this was a move to get the message out.

The night before, many violent protesters had been arrested at the DNC. Randall called ahead to let the police know we didn't have weapons, we weren't violent, we wouldn't be resisting arrest... that this was peaceful civil disobedience. The arresting officers were really wonderful.[/quote]
How were they wonderful? Srsly, I would guess they'd at least be "doing their job" and just sorta be like "okay, you have to get into the car now". *sigh*

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1641442' date='Aug 29 2008, 11:56 AM']love the new av, T!

yes - we disrupted the women's caucus yesterday - that was actually harder than the sit-in - the evil i sensed in the women's caucus ballroom is something i won't forget - we surprised the rich liberal women so much, they were speechless for a few seconds before they erupted in anger and hatred.

[url="http://www.lifenews.com/nat4228.html"]story by Life News[/url]

Again, since we are dealing with a pro-choice-dominated media, what hit the wires has a different slant (i won't post any of those links, since they have my name... )

----
i won't apologize for any of my political actions these past four days - i am more ticked off about the millions of babies being killed than politeness toward the DNC. Yes, the DNC has a right to gather - obviously. However, i personally could not stand silently by while a party that continues to support genocide met in my state to support a presidential candidate whose anti-life record need not be discussed in open mic.

i have had people constantly screaming at me because we struck a nerve; i personally think that is a good thing - as i repeatedly said on the bullhorn, "Please, my sisters, wake up!"

i have also had two women come up to me crying because their hearts had been opened, and to me, that was worth 10 hours in jail, a headache, and a pile of work to catch up on this weekend.

Peace in Christ,
-fides[/quote]
You are my hero. God bless you for sticking your neck out.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1642964' date='Aug 30 2008, 10:30 PM']How were they wonderful? Srsly, I would guess they'd at least be "doing their job" and just sorta be like "okay, you have to get into the car now". *sigh*[/quote]

Well, we were standing out in the sun for what felt like at least an hour, waiting for each arrestee to be logged/photoed/frisked before placed in the paddy wagons.

We each had two arresting officers, and they were very polite with us, chatting with us, and sometimes cracking jokes with us. They gave us bottled water, apologized for the plastic cuffs being tight, thanked us for the head's up beforehand, helped us get around, pointed out curbs/told us to watch our step, repeatedly asked if we were okay, told us this was much easier than the protests the day before, and at least one of them thanked another arrestee for what we were doing. Most of them were from Aurora PD, a neighboring town, so they were unfamiliar with Denver's arresting sheets and such, so while they were comparing notes with each other on how to fill out the forms, they were joking with us about how they didn't know as much as the Denver cops.

That's what i mean by they were really wonderful - they knew we were doing this as an anti-abortion statement, and they really made the initial arrest as easy as it possibly could have been.