How Do You Guys Respond To This?

[Dave]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 8 2004, 04:57 PM'] and the bible is unchanging...no matter who wrote it and how much was added and how much its distorted and whatever else is done to it. WE can ALWAYS go back to the Greek and Hebrew to see EXACTLY what was meant and said, without having to see the interpretation of one man or another.

and if you say that Mary had no more children, fine, you believe that...but the Bible does say otherwise...in Greek, not english.

[/quote]
1. The original Greek and Hebrew is moot if you don't know how to interpret the Bible correctly.

2. You forget that Jesus and His disciples etc. spoke Aramaic, and the original Greek Bible was the translation of the original Aramaic words spoken. So no, the Bible doesn't say what you claim it says at all regarding Mary's other alleged offspring.

[cmotherofpirl]

Nobody ever said Mary was mother of God the Father. But she is definitely the Mother of God the Son. Jesus recieved all of his humanity from his mother. THat is why she is Theokotos, just to answer that specific heresy.

Jesus was an only child.

In Aramaic, brother refers to cousins and kins as well as actual biological brothers. If Jesus had actuial siblings He would not have given His mom to John to be cared for.

It has been the constant teaching for 2000 years Jesus had no immediate family.
So I 'll take the Church's word for it.

Its funny you think Mary would have exploded if she had seen God. She CARRIED God the Son in her body for 9 months. One reason she had to be born sinless

[Trying2BFaithful]

[quote]and the bible is unchanging...no matter who wrote it and how much was added and how much its distorted and whatever else is done to it. WE can ALWAYS go back to the Greek and Hebrew to see EXACTLY what was meant and said, without having to see the interpretation of one man or another.

and if you say that Mary had no more children, fine, you believe that...but the Bible does say otherwise...in Greek, not english.[/quote]

<sigh>...Lumberjack, please do not take my response as a criticism, but you are falling victim to your own context. What, pray tell, does that mean?

Your conception of the word "brother" or "brethren" is a very English, literal understanding. The words "brother" and "brethren" are [i]roughly[/i] translated into English from the original Greek and/or Aramaic in these circumstances. While close in meaning, historical connotations from 2,000 years ago can be very different from the modern, American, English connotations. A small anecdote might help.

I studied Catholicism and modern missionary work in Cameroon (West Africa) a year and a half ago. Cameroon is predominantly Catholic but there is a large contingent of Protestants. Throughout the course of my research, one observable difference between the Catholic v. Protestant debate in the U.S. versus Africa is the nature of respective ideological differences. This issue (regarding Jesus' brother) has ZERO relevance in Cameroon, and I'll tell you why. Western African languages such as Bamileke, Fulbae, Kinuri, etc. use the word for "brother" very loosely. In these cultures, the translations for "brother" or "brethren" indicate a very close male companion including but not limited to blood brothers, cousins, and friends. The issue regarding whether or not Jesus had blood brothers for them, thus, is moot. Most Cameroonian Christians unanimously exhort that there is no direct indication of such in scripture. There linguistic connotations of "brother" and "brethren" are very different from yours. Ultimately, the Bible makes no definitive proclamation that Jesus had blood brothers who were children of Mary and Joseph.

That being said, it is clear that the words "brethren" and "brother" had historical connotations of their own when originally used, and that is what we strive to understand. Marielapin did a fine job of trying to clear things up for you. If confusion or debate surrounds an issue such as this, who are we to turn to for the right answer? Well, if we take your approach and consult the Bible, it'll send us right to the Church.

Hope this helps.

-Patrick

[cmotherofpirl]

Patrick can you start a thread somewhere and talk about your experiences of the African Catholic church?

[Trying2BFaithful]

Sure, I'll try to post the research paper I wrote. It is experiential research with historical background. It's more like a history paper with a diary included but I think you'll appreciate it. It is, however, very very long. I'll work on it and post it later.

-Patrick

[Trying2BFaithful]

[quote]at the Council of Chalcedon (451a.d.) wasn't Mary given the title of Theokotos? which means God-bearer, or Mother of God? Well see, the thing is Mary was truly Jesus' mother, but I mean, come on, she was Christ's mother in respect to his humanity, not His deity. God CHOSE her to give birth to the Messiah, not the other way around.like I've said, "blessed among women" sure...but even Christ HIMSELF downplayed the relationship with her while TOTALLY emphasizing His relationship with His believers....Matthew 12:46-50, Luke 11:27-28[/quote]

I feel compelled to respond to this as well.

You are misrepresenting/misunderstanding what the Catholic Church teaches and what faithful Catholics believe. We do not hold that Mary was the mother-creator of God the Father. We, as Catholic Christians, believe in a triune God. God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When referring to Son, meaning Jesus, we do not believe that he is only 1/3 of God. We revere him as both [i]fully human [/i]and [i]fully divine[/i]. To say that Mary is the Mother of God, refers to the FACT that she is the earthly mother of God made flesh, who is the Son, Jesus. We do not refer to her as the mother of the Holy Spirit or the mother of God the Father.

I believe you fundamentally misunderstand the "Trinity," which almost all Protestants also believe in. (By the way, try finding the word "trinity" in the Bible if its your only authority on earth!). Triune does not mean that God has three parts or divisions which collectively but not separately contain the totality of God. Each Person- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit- is fully divine. However, "God" has also these three distinct Persons- Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I hope I conveyed this correctly without making any Theological errors. Help me out here Catholics!

[the_rev]

Cmother, said everything I would have said!

[Archangel]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 8 2004, 11:57 AM']The catholic church did not write the Bible, the Prophets, Judges, and Kings of the old testament did...the Apostles, Disciples and Brethren of the new testament did.[/quote]
The "Apostles, Disciples and Brethren" were Catholic.

In addition, the Catholic Church decided at Councils in Hippo, Carthage, and Trent which books were truly inspired by God.

[the lumberjack]

what about Christ's sisters?

Mary's other sons included Joses (Joseph), James, Judas, and Simon. There were evidently sisters as well, but they are unnamed (Matthew 13:55-56; Mark 6:3).

are these cousins as well?

and why do you choose to believe that brother is translated SOLELY as cousin?...if you guys said, as well as I know, that is also translated as blood brother.

so it can fit the mold? I hope not.

and if you're saying that faithful Catholics don't believe EVERYTHING the Catholic church teaches....then I might be dumbfounded...for a second. till everyone comes on here and says otherwise anywho.

its still all love.

[Chrisjohn04]

Hello Lumberjack may the peace of Christ be with you and everyone else here. I am a former Protestant (Methodist) married to a Protestant (Episcopalian) with Protestant Parents (Baptist, Presbyterian) so I see your view. I'm assumin gthat by sayin that the Blessed Virgin Mary had other kids you mean the stories where she shows up to stop Christ from teaching. This is a fair point and I acknowledge your skepticism, but (and there is always a but) actually the term Brothers and sisters was used pretty frequently during the time of Christ to those that are close to us. So this is not entirely unexpected, for a solid Catholic point of view look online for a book called Christs Mother & Ours by Father Oscar Lukefahr, C.M. it will explain most of the details far better than us, plus it's relatively short. Early Christians actually had no problem with her being conceived sinless as a GRACE from God. The title Theotokos in Greek means Mother of God and it was a title that the Church gave to MAry to demonstrate that she was the Mother of God in the Flesh, or Jesus for us average bums. If she weren't the Mother of God than who is Jesus??? IF you want to hear more let me know.
Blessings to you

Chris "The Convert" Johnson

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 8 2004, 08:21 PM'] what about Christ's sisters?

Mary's other sons included Joses (Joseph), James, Judas, and Simon. There were evidently sisters as well, but they are unnamed (Matthew 13:55-56; Mark 6:3).

are these cousins as well?

and why do you choose to believe that brother is translated SOLELY as cousin?...if you guys said, as well as I know, that is also translated as blood brother.

so it can fit the mold? I hope not.

and if you're saying that faithful Catholics don't believe EVERYTHING the Catholic church teaches....then I might be dumbfounded...for a second. till everyone comes on here and says otherwise anywho.

its still all love. [/quote]
lumberjack,

Mt 13:55 = "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brethren [GK, adelphos: brethren, brothers, kinsmen, etc.] James and Joseph and Simon and Judas."
Mk 6:3 = "Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother [GK, adelphos: ] of James and Joses [Joseph] and Judas and Simon, and are no his sisters here with us?"

Notes:
1. Joses is a variant spelling of Joseph.
2. According to my Greek Lexicon (it's non-Catholic by the way) the word adelphos means brothers or kinsmen (brethren).
3. I've read protestant scholarship which admits that the Bible is not conclusive about Jesus actually have blood brothers and sisters (I'm too lazy to dig up quotes right now).
4. The ancient Christian understanding was that Mary had no other children. These were native Greek speakers who were much closer to Christ's lifetime who certainly would know better.

Other verses to consider:
Mt 27:56 = "Among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph [Joses] and the mother of the sons of Zebedee."
Mk 15:40 = "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses [Joseph], and Salome, who, when he was in Galilee, followed him and misistered to him."
Mk 15:47 = "Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses [Joseph] saw where he was laid."
Jn 20:25 = "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene."

Conclusion:
It seems reasonable to infer that Mary the mother of Jesus had an adelphai also named Mary (which suggests she was probably not a full blood sister since people don't name two daughters the same thing, perhaps a cousin). So this close relative of Mary had sons named James and Joses [Joseph] and possible others (such as Salome, Judas and Simon) who would have been Christ's cousins or kinsmen (adelphos).

[foundsheep]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 8 2004, 02:57 PM']
[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org"]a DOPE onliine concordance[/url]

I'm not the only person on these boards to say that this concordance IS dope, and has MUCH to offer us to learn.

[/quote]
That concordance doesnt contain the complete inspired word of God. You yourself have said that Catholic fathers gave us the Bible. Well use the one they Gave us. Not the King of England.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='foundsheep' date='Mar 8 2004, 10:25 PM'] That concordance doesnt contain the complete inspired word of God. You yourself have said that Catholic fathers gave us the Bible. Well use the one they Gave us. Not the King of England. [/quote]
yeah, it's best to use multiple resources when studying the Bible. That's what I try to do. I try to use Catholic, Protestant and Jewish scholarship.

[marielapin]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 8 2004, 09:21 PM'] and if you're saying that faithful Catholics don't believe EVERYTHING the Catholic church teaches....then I might be dumbfounded...for a second.  till everyone comes on here and says otherwise anywho.

its still all love. [/quote]
Lumberjack,

Just so you know, when someone joins the Catholic Church they must attest, in front of the entire Church (most importantly - God), that they believe ALL that the Catholic Church teaches to be true.

All Catholics are bound to believe what the Church teaches as far as doctrine and dogma. So unless they lied, or they are poorly educated, or believe their own reasoning is more important than the church's, every Catholic should agree.

[marielapin]

Lumberjack,

Every point you have brought up concerning the brothers and sisters of Christ has been answered in depth in the article I posted on the previous page - just in case you are interested.

I picked it because when I was once Protestant it helped me to understand fully what the Church teaching is, and why it is in line with the Bible.