Why Obama Is Not An Antichrist

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1695513' date='Nov 6 2008, 12:02 AM']i cant do that and im sincerly asking you to help me out and show me some church teaching and instances where this applies.[/quote]
I have given you teachings of the Church (e.g., 1st Corinthians 6 that says that those who support various immoral positions will not inherit the kingdom of God), and even Pope John Paul II's definitive pronouncements in Evangelium Vitae that declare support for murder, abortion, and euthansia to be heresies.

Anyone who opposes (anti) Christ is by definition an anti-Christ.

[KnightofChrist]

Or better fitted to the verse from John do the demons in hell who believe Jesus Christ is God, and the demons called Legion who saw Christ in the flesh and called Him the Son of the Living God, have the spirit of the Antichrist?

[Guest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1695516' date='Nov 6 2008, 03:03 AM']What of people who do not believe in Christ? Do they have the spirit of Antichrist? John says so...[/quote]

yes they do,
that is why there are many antichrist.
anyone who does not acknowlege chirst came in the flesh has the spirit of the antichirst.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1695519' date='Nov 6 2008, 02:04 AM']I have given you teachings of the Church (e.g., 1st Corinthians 6 that says that those who support various immoral positions will not inherit the kingdom of God), and even Pope John Paul II's definitive pronouncements in Evangelium Vitae that declare support for murder, abortion, and euthansia to be heresies.

Anyone who opposes (anti) Christ is by definition an anti-Christ.[/quote]

No that won't do. The question here is the definition of an anti-Christ. You're giving an english definition based on the words themselves.

Delivery boy has given a biblical definition of the same word.

The Biblical definition does not call those who support immoral positions antichrists. In fact the Bible doesn't say that those who oppose Christ are anti-Christs, it lists a more specific definition.

You've said Delivery is reading the Scriptures wrong. Where is the Church telling us that the definition of anti-Christs is more than just what St. John wrote.

[Guest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1695520' date='Nov 6 2008, 03:07 AM']Or better fitted to the verse from John do the demons in hell who believe Jesus Christ is God, and the demons called Legion who saw Christ in the flesh and called Him the Son of the Living God, have the spirit of the Antichrist?[/quote]

i see where your going with that and i would say no.
but after thinking about it i would say yes because the spirit of the antichrist does come from satan himself.

[Apotheoun]

1 John 2:22 makes the very general statement: "Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-christ, that denies the Father and the Son."

The term for "denies" in the Greek text means to "work against" to "abjure" to "refuse support", and by his actions Obama has refused to support the teaching of Christ, who is life itself, by promoting an ideology that attacks innocent human beings through the crime of abortion.

In 1 John 2:18 the Apostle also notes that there are "many" anti-Christs, and he does not restrict the usage of the term to those who simply deny the incarnation.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Apotheoun

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1695518' date='Nov 6 2008, 02:04 AM']Again, are the demons in hell Antichrists?[/quote]

I'm not sure.

But I think what is going on here is a definitional debate.

You're using the english words themselves, which would simply mean anyone or anything that opposes Christ. In this sense we can call all heretics, demons, ect. anti-Christs.


But Delivery Boy is saying there is a more specific definition, one used by St. John saying an anti-Christ is someone who denys Christ in the flesh.

Saying 'My definition is better' (which is basically what is going on here) is no good. He's got the Bible!

Now, Apo has said the tradition of the Church leads him to believe that the broader definition is better. I'm listening, I want to see it.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1695526' date='Nov 6 2008, 02:09 AM']1 John 2:22 makes the very general statement: "Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-christ, that denies the Father and the Son."

The term for "denies" in the Greek text means to "work against" to "abjure" to "refuse support", and by his actions Obama has refused to support the teaching of Christ, who is life itself, by attacking innocent human being through the promotion of the crime of abortion.

In 1 John 2:18 the Apostle also notes that there are "many" anti-Christs, and he does not restrict the usage of the term to those who simply deny the incarnation.[/quote]

This is the post that was needed on page one.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1695521' date='Nov 6 2008, 03:07 AM']yes they do,
that is why there are many antichrist.
anyone who does not acknowlege chirst came in the flesh has the spirit of the antichirst.[/quote]

How do the demons in hell not also have the spirit of Antichrist? How do those that support the genocide of children not have the spirit of Antichrist?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1695526' date='Nov 6 2008, 03:09 AM']1 John 2:22 makes the very general statement: "Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-christ, that denies the Father and the Son."

The term for "denies" in the Greek text means to "work against" to "abjure" to "refuse support", and by his actions Obama has refused to support the teaching of Christ, who is life itself, by attacking innocent human being through the promotion of the crime of abortion.

In 1 John 2:18 the Apostle also notes that there are "many" anti-Christs, and he does not restrict the usage of the term to those who simply deny the incarnation.[/quote]


Everybody agreed now?

[Guest]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1695530' date='Nov 6 2008, 03:18 AM']Everybody agreed now?[/quote]

no i dont agree obama is an antichrist.

[Guest]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1695527' date='Nov 6 2008, 03:12 AM']Now, Apo has said the tradition of the Church leads him to believe that the broader definition is better. I'm listening, I want to see it.[/quote]

me to

[Slappo]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1695531' date='Nov 5 2008, 11:19 PM']no i dont agree obama is an antichrist.[/quote]

You might as well start using arguments for salvation based on the scripture passage that says if you confess with your tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord you are saved....

Your argument defining anti-christ from John fails through the meaning of the text that John wrote. Apo gave a clear definition of what the original text is actually trying to say...

[Apotheoun]

What does the prefix "anti" mean? Is it restricted to one particular meaning as Delivery Boy contends?

No, it is not limited in this manner, and in fact Delivery Boy's assertion defies logic, because it would ultimately limit the meaning of this prefix in Greek language (which is the language of the New Testament authors) to simply one particular usage, but the New Testament in fact uses the term more than 15 times in the Gospels and the Epistles and its usage varies depending upon the context of the passage in question. "Anti" simply means opposition, and anyone who opposes Christ (i.e., His message or the adoration that is His due) is an anti-Christ, i.e., a person who opposes Christ.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Apotheoun

[rkwright]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1695532' date='Nov 6 2008, 02:20 AM']me to[/quote]

Well I have to say that Apo has a good knowledge of the greek language, and given his interpretation on post #66 - the ball is back in your court.

[Guest]

lol alright alright
apo you got me with the greek translation thing.
i dont really have an arugment for that.
i just get really confused.
the bible seems so easy to understand yet its not.
i dunno
i still dont think he's an antichirst but what you say makes sence
i'll still pray for him
godbless

[Guest]

but i would add that i belive obamas spirit is from God since he acknowlges Christ came in the flesh. I think he needs alot of prayers but i wouldnt write him off as doomed for hell yet.

Edited November 6, 2008 by Guest

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1695535' date='Nov 6 2008, 02:22 AM']What does the prefix "anti" mean? Is it restricted to one particular meaning as Delivery Boy contends?

No, it is not limited in this manner, and in fact Delivery Boy's assertion defies logic, because it would ultimately limit the meaning of this prefix in Greek language (which is the language of the New Testament authors) to simply one particular usage, but the New Testament in fact uses the term more than 15 times in the Gospels and the Epistles and its usage varies depending upon the context of the passage in question. "Anti" simply means opposition, and anyone who opposes Christ (i.e., His message or the adoration that is His due) is an anti-Christ, i.e., a person who opposes Christ.[/quote]

Well some words mean more than just their etymology. Eucharist means a little more than just 'thanks' or 'well+favor' (thats from wiki...).

[KnightofChrist]

"it would appear that Antichrist will be led on from rejecting the SON of GOD, to the rejection of GOD altogether, either by *[b]implication[/b] or practically."

Cardinal John Henry Newman from his [url="http://www.conventhill.com/endtimes/newman2.htm"]sermon[/url] on I JOHN 4:3

[b]implication[/b]: Conveyed indirectly without words or speech

---------------------------------

Is the support of genocide of Children rejection of God?

[Apotheoun]

From St. Augustine's homily on 1 John:

"All heretics, all schismatics went out from us, that is, they go out from the Church; but they would not go out, if they were of us. Therefore, before they went out they were not of us. If before they went out they were not of us, many are within, are not gone out, but yet are antichrists. We dare to say this: and why, but that each one while he is within may not be an antichrist? For he is about to describe and mark the antichrists, and we shall see them now. And each person ought to question his own conscience, whether he be an antichrist. [i][b]For antichrist in our tongue means, contrary to Christ.[/b][/i]"