Possible Ex-communication

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=39553"]http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/arti...px?RsrcID=39553[/url]

[eagle_eye222001]

We will see. I think the Church will have much to protest with Obama and the Big Left.

The stage is being set. The battle will begin. The Pro-Life Movement will experience several losses.

Yeah there is going to be excommunications. You can just about guarantee that.

[Brother Adam]

We'll see. The excommunication of Catholics in politics such as Biden and Pelosi is long overdue.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1706965' date='Nov 21 2008, 10:33 AM']We'll see. The excommunication of Catholics in politics such as Biden and Pelosi is long overdue.[/quote]

I don't know if there are any Canadien politicians left that have not been excommunicated automatically. Sad really.

[thessalonian]

This is coming to a head. They have to do it!

[zwergel88]

Why the smiley face next to this thread? Even if you believe this is the right thing to do, it's still sad. Why would you be happy about anyone's excommunication? Personally, I would feel awful for these politicians and hope that they changed their minds before it was too late.

[Slappo]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707220' date='Nov 21 2008, 11:26 AM']Why the smiley face next to this thread? Even if you believe this is the right thing to do, it's still sad. Why would you be happy about anyone's excommunication? Personally, I would feel awful for these politicians and hope that they changed their minds before it was too late.[/quote]

Because excommunication is an act of love by the Church towards the person being excommunicated. When excommunication is deserved, such as in these cases, it is loving for the Church to excommunicate said persons. It is an act of love not only towards the individual, but towards the rest of the Church universal by showing what is okay and what is not okay. The people are catechized, and the individual is rebuked for his position and told in a formal way that to continue holding such position is to endanger his eternal soul.

Excommunication when due is charitable.

EDIT: People would smile about said excommunications because it means our bishops are taking the courageous stance to love these people when it is hardest. It is like punishing your children, you hate to do it because they are in a way hurt by it, but deep down it is really one of the greatest acts of love you can give them.

Edited November 21, 2008 by Slappo

[thessalonian]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707220' date='Nov 21 2008, 01:26 PM']Why the smiley face next to this thread? Even if you believe this is the right thing to do, it's still sad. Why would you be happy about anyone's excommunication? Personally, I would feel awful for these politicians and hope that they changed their minds before it was too late.[/quote]


Point taken.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707220' date='Nov 21 2008, 02:26 PM']Why the smiley face next to this thread? Even if you believe this is the right thing to do, it's still sad. Why would you be happy about anyone's excommunication? Personally, I would feel awful for these politicians and hope that they changed their minds before it was too late.[/quote]

I was thinking that too. It's a serious situation, not a happy one...I think this smiley would be better: (the one that will show up at the top of this post.)

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1707228' date='Nov 21 2008, 11:40 AM']Because excommunication is an act of love by the Church towards the person being excommunicated. When excommunication is deserved, such as in these cases, it is loving for the Church to excommunicate said persons. It is an act of love not only towards the individual, but towards the rest of the Church universal by showing what is okay and what is not okay. The people are catechized, and the individual is rebuked for his position and told in a formal way that to continue holding such position is to endanger his eternal soul.

Excommunication when due is charitable.

EDIT: People would smile about said excommunications because it means our bishops are taking the courageous stance to love these people when it is hardest. It is like punishing your children, you hate to do it because they are in a way hurt by it, but deep down it is really one of the greatest acts of love you can give them.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
agreed.

[cappie]

From Ed Peters:

FOCA will certainly be introduced, it will likely pass and be signed into law, and various Catholic legislators will commit objective grave sin by supporting it. They will be liable to consequences under Canon 915 for doing so (btw, they should be liable whether FOCA passes or no).

But they will not be liable to excommunication under c 1398. I suppose I'll just have to go on repeating this until somebody (in a position to get quoted on the issue) reads my post from last year:[url="http://www.canonlaw.info/2007/05/case-for-applying-canon-1398-to.html"]http://www.canonlaw.info/2007/05/case-for-...on-1398-to.html[/url]

[Apotheoun]

Below is a link to Archbishop Burke's article on canon 915:

[url="http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/holycom/denial.htm"][u]The Discipline Regarding the Denial of Holy Communion to Those Obstinately Persevering in Manifest Grave Sin[/u][/url]

[Guest MJReynolds]

I'm a Culture of Life, Centrist, Blue Dog Democrat. I do not think that either party has a monopoly on the Life issue. As a Catholic it is not proper to call for the excommunication of a politician because he has certain voting records on abortion, the death penalty, or unjust war. It is silly to think that Biden needs to be excommunicated because he doesn't impose his religious beliefs on his constituents. I'd rather all politicians be Pro-Life. But the major flaw in the predominant Pro-Life argument is that the only solution is to overturn Roe v. Wade. The fact of the matter is that this would only make it a state issue. The real solution is to be not only anti-abortion, but also Pro-child-post-birth; give the mother incentive to want to keep it. I've known women who have had self-induced starvation abortions (very sad), but how could the government regulate this? We need programs that encourage adoption and other options for single mothers, not the excommunication of church members that have differing views on how to reduce abortions.

[Brother Adam]

First, shame on you for promoting a culture of death and pretending any Catholic can be pro-murder. The murder of a child is the murder of a child and the genocide of unborn children is worse than the Nazi holocaust. Even Hitler had more compassion in executing the Jewish people than abortion doctors do in abortuaries. Catholic politicians have not only a right but a duty to vote in accord with their faith and must be formally excommunicated for promoting the murder of children. The pro-life movement is already doing plenty to promote adoption over murder and has pregnancy centers available for any mother that needs help. By promoting and condoning a pro-death record Catholic politicians confuse otherwise faithful Catholics who then make mistakes themselves that often land them on a path to hell. The problem is your Planned Parenthood clinics and pro-death organizations that lie to women and to the public and actually offer murder as a choice. Murdering the unborn is a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance for the women and children that fall victims to it.

As has already been explained excommunication is a penalty of mercy, both on the faithful and on those receiving the penalty.

Added: I see in your profile you are Catholic. As a Catholic if you have supported murder by voting for Obama our bishops have stated without confusion that you have cooperated in evil. If you have voted for him you need to refrain from receiving communion until you go to confession and discuss with the priest how culpable you are for your sin and if that sin was mortal.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Brother Adam

[zwergel88]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1707776' date='Nov 22 2008, 10:54 AM']First, shame on you for promoting a culture of death and pretending any Catholic can be pro-murder.[/quote]

What?!! MJReyolds stated that he/she is pro-life. Why would you go and claim that this person is something that they just said that they are not? As a matter of fact what is with people on this site trying to label people as things that they have said they are not. If I say I am pro-life please just take my word for it!! The legality of abortion is an extremely complex issue, that's not just as black and white as overturning Roe v. Wade. I agree with the poster that overturning Roe v. Wade would probably just complicate things more. This is not being "pro-culture of death" its just a legal opinion. I think that there are better ways of ending abortion such as a constitutional amendment, but I agree with the poster in this sense that I think that the first step is to increase the amount of support for pregnent women and ensure that children who are born into this country have adequent support.

[quote]The murder of a child is the murder of a child and the genocide of unborn children is worse than the Nazi holocaust. Even Hitler had more compassion in executing the Jewish people than abortion doctors do in abortuaries.[/quote]

This analogy is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard in my life. To diminish the horror of an event such as the Holocaust is ridiculous. There is absolutely no comparison between abortion and the Holocaust. How can you possible argue that Hitler had more compassion that doctors who perform abortions? Even if it turns out that fetal pain is a factor in late term abortions, the procedure doesn't last very long, and the child doesn't know what is happening. In Nazi Germany, people were rounded up from their houses, packed into train cars so tight that they couldn't move, and taken to concentration camps where they were forced to wait for months, enduring squalid conditions, starvation, and back-breaking work, until finally they were systematically exterminated. These were fully cognizant adults who had to live with the gnawing fear of not knowing what was going to happen to them. It must have been unbearable. How is this not worse?

How can you say that

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

The irony of the pro-choice movement is that the only person whose choice matters is the pregnant woman's choice. The doctors', hospitals', and pharmacists' choices do not matter and they should be forced to cooperate with the woman's wishes. This is one piece of legislation that should truly be classified as pro-abortion. If a mother decides to abort her child, then many who would otherwise want to not perform an abortion will be forced to help under penalty of law. It is one thing to vote against certain legislation that prohibits abortion, especially if the law would violate other legal protections, but I do not see how anyone who claims to be pro-life could vote for this piece of legislation. You will see so many medical professionals stop working at a time when we need more doctors, not fewer.

Edited November 22, 2008 by 1337 k4th0l1x0r

[Apotheoun]

No one ever said that overturning Roe V. Wade was the "only" thing that should be done. That is a straw man argument. Nevertheless, an intrinsically unjust "law" is no law at all, but is an abuse, and as such it must be overturned.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Dave]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 11:41 AM']What?!! MJReyolds stated that he/she is pro-life. Why would you go and claim that this person is something that they just said that they are not? As a matter of fact what is with people on this site trying to label people as things that they have said they are not. If I say I am pro-life please just take my word for it!![/quote]

Well you too claim to be pro-life, and yet you've broadcast on here that you voted for Obama and other pro-abortion politicians (sure, you claim their abortion status isn't why you vote for them, as if that makes it OK). So is it any wonder, then, how the gulf between your words and actions causes confusion and scandal to others?

[aalpha1989]

First of all, I don't think it is ever okay to smile at excommunications. Yes they are necessary, and yes it is good that our bishops are acting, but excommunication is serious and it is disgusting that it IS necessary. It is disgusting that members of the Church excommunicate themselves.

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 10:41 AM']This analogy is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard in my life. To diminish the horror of an event such as the Holocaust is ridiculous. There is absolutely no comparison between abortion and the Holocaust. How can you possible argue that Hitler had more compassion that doctors who perform abortions? Even if it turns out that fetal pain is a factor in late term abortions, the procedure doesn't last very long, and the child doesn't know what is happening. In Nazi Germany, people were rounded up from their houses, packed into train cars so tight that they couldn't move, and taken to concentration camps where they were forced to wait for months, enduring squalid conditions, starvation, and back-breaking work, until finally they were systematically exterminated. These were fully cognizant adults who had to live with the gnawing fear of not knowing what was going to happen to them. It must have been unbearable. How is this not worse?

How can you say that[/quote]


He did nothing to diminish the horror of the Holocaust, all he said was that abortion is a greater evil than the Holocaust. He is right. THERE IS NO WORSE MURDER THAN THAT OF A BABY IN THE WOMB. That is the one place a person was made to be perfectly safe, and the mother is the one person who is supposed to always protect her children. The Holocaust was horrendous, but no murder can match ripping a baby literally limb from limb and putting it in a dumpster.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 11:41 AM']What?!! MJReyolds stated that he/she is pro-life. Why would you go and claim that this person is something that they just said that they are not? As a matter of fact what is with people on this site trying to label people as things that they have said they are not. If I say I am pro-life please just take my word for it!! The legality of abortion is an extremely complex issue, that's not just as black and white as overturning Roe v. Wade. I agree with the poster that overturning Roe v. Wade would probably just complicate things more. This is not being "pro-culture of death" its just a legal opinion. I think that there are better ways of ending abortion such as a constitutional amendment, but I agree with the poster in this sense that I think that the first step is to increase the amount of support for pregnent women and ensure that children who are born into this country have adequent support.

This analogy is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard in my life. To diminish the horror of an event such as the Holocaust is ridiculous. There is absolutely no comparison between abortion and the Holocaust. How can you possible argue that Hitler had more compassion that doctors who perform abortions? Even if it turns out that fetal pain is a factor in late term abortions, the procedure doesn't last very long, and the child doesn't know what is happening. In Nazi Germany, people were rounded up from their houses, packed into train cars so tight that they couldn't move, and taken to concentration camps where they were forced to wait for months, enduring squalid conditions, starvation, and back-breaking work, until finally they were systematically exterminated. These were fully cognizant adults who had to live with the gnawing fear of not knowing what was going to happen to them. It must have been unbearable. How is this not worse?

How can you say that[/quote]

This is even more shameful than the original post. No wonder so many Catholics are so confused and outside of God's grace.

Tearing children apart limb from limb, burning them to death in acid, and cracking their heads open and sucking out their brains is far more horrible of a way to die than by a firing squad or gas. The attitude of those who favor abortion in any form is also worse than those in Nazi Germany. The Nazi holocaust was horrible, sick, and disgusting. The abortion holocaust is 100x worse. Far fewer adults also died at the hands of Nazi's than children the hands of abortion "doctors". The murder of a race of people is sick enough, the vicious genocide of unborn children is even worse (which is btw, targeted at African Americans and minorities, white superiority and Planned Parenthood are bedfellows). I cannot consider anyone anything other than pro-murder that would not advocate the immediate and full end to all abortions everywhere. Murdering children is never a choice. It's best to start wrapping ones head around that. Abortion is the murder of children.

Overturning Roe V Wade is one vital step. Offering women alternatives already exist to any woman that needs help. There is no complexity to ending abortion - we either do as a country, or we will succumb to the prophetic words of John Paul II - we will have committed collective suicide as a civilization.