Possible Ex-communication

[Norseman82]

I suggested this a few weeks ago:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=86999&st=60&p=1694553&#entry1694553"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...p;#entry1694553[/url]

Maybe Cardinal George is lurking here?

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Here's how I see abortion ending...

Scientists are going to find that there really is a gay gene. It will be a simple test to determine if a child will be gay, or at least a probability that the kid will grow up gay. So simple that it can be done before the child is even born. What will eventually happen is a Christian couple will get their unborn child tested and he will test positive for the gay gene. The couple states their intention to abort their child because the child might turn out gay. So many groups will be offended that the only solution will be to outlaw abortion for any reason.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1707228' date='Nov 21 2008, 12:40 PM']Because excommunication is an act of love by the Church towards the person being excommunicated. When excommunication is deserved, such as in these cases, it is loving for the Church to excommunicate said persons. It is an act of love not only towards the individual, but towards the rest of the Church universal by showing what is okay and what is not okay. The people are catechized, and the individual is rebuked for his position and told in a formal way that to continue holding such position is to endanger his eternal soul.

Excommunication when due is charitable.

EDIT: People would smile about said excommunications because it means our bishops are taking the courageous stance to love these people when it is hardest. It is like punishing your children, you hate to do it because they are in a way hurt by it, but deep down it is really one of the greatest acts of love you can give them.[/quote]
Or its another excuse for the self righteous to pat themselves on the back.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1707861' date='Nov 22 2008, 02:14 PM']This is even more shameful than the original post. No wonder so many Catholics are so confused and outside of God's grace.

Tearing children apart limb from limb, burning them to death in acid, and cracking their heads open and sucking out their brains is far more horrible of a way to die than by a firing squad or gas. The attitude of those who favor abortion in any form is also worse than those in Nazi Germany. The Nazi holocaust was horrible, sick, and disgusting. The abortion holocaust is 100x worse. Far fewer adults also died at the hands of Nazi's than children the hands of abortion "doctors". The murder of a race of people is sick enough, the vicious genocide of unborn children is even worse (which is btw, targeted at African Americans and minorities, white superiority and Planned Parenthood are bedfellows). I cannot consider anyone anything other than pro-murder that would not advocate the immediate and full end to all abortions everywhere. Murdering children is never a choice. It's best to start wrapping ones head around that. Abortion is the murder of children.

Overturning Roe V Wade is one vital step. Offering women alternatives already exist to any woman that needs help. There is no complexity to ending abortion - we either do as a country, or we will succumb to the prophetic words of John Paul II - we will have committed collective suicide as a civilization.[/quote]
Amen!

Calling oneself "pro-life" and voting for Obama is like calling oneself "pro-Jew" and voting for Hitler.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Socrates

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707220' date='Nov 21 2008, 01:26 PM']Why the smiley face next to this thread? Even if you believe this is the right thing to do, it's still sad. Why would you be happy about anyone's excommunication? Personally, I would feel awful for these politicians and hope that they changed their minds before it was too late.[/quote]

Would you complain about the smiley face if the politicians were Republicans? Just wondering.

[Guest MJReynolds]

Catholics should not be single issue voters. To say that I am supporting a culture of death for voting for Obama is ludicrous. You voted for McCain who supports the death penalty. Does that not seem hypocritical to a person who should uphold the sanctity of ALL life? Being Pro-Life isn't about simply being Anti-Abortion. This is a much more complex issue than I think you understand.

[Ash Wednesday]

The Church does not approach the death penalty in the same regard as she does abortion. While the Church has become increasingly vocal against its use, for example, in some of the observations of Pope John Paul II -- she does allow for it in some cases in principle, thus not banning it outright.

This, however, is not the same as abortion, which is condemned by the Church in all cases. If we believe that life begins at the moment conception -- not just a cluster of cells but a genuine human being with a soul, then the lives lost at the hand of abortion vastly outnumbers lives lost from the death penalty. The same also goes for war.

This does not mean that issues are not important. But some issues such as abortion are so grave and heinous, unless there is sufficient proportionate reason to support someone like Obama, we can not support them. Otherwise, as Catholics, we cooperate in grave evil.

There really was no proportionate reason that justified a Catholic voting for Obama.

Please don't take this as a "judgment" -- I don't think any critics on here are claiming to know state of any Obama voter's soul. But all the feelgood rhetoric and happy self-talk in the world can not mask the truth that we as Catholics have failed and we will have to answer to God for how we have stood by and let things get to be the way we have.

A day soon will come when the Freedom of Choice Act will be signed into law. Everything that people in the pro-life movement have fought for will be completely wiped away. The possibility of all Catholic healthcare as we know it, completely done away with -- shutting down rather than being forced to perform abortions.

What will Catholics who claim to be in the fight against abortion and on the side of "pro-life" have to say for themselves when they voted for the person that helped put this into place?

Edited November 23, 2008 by Ash Wednesday

[Apotheoun]

Abortion as a means or an end is intrinsically immoral because it involves the murder of an innocent human being, while the death penalty is permitted by both scripture and tradition as a form of retributive justice.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1708604' date='Nov 23 2008, 12:22 PM']Catholics should not be single issue voters. To say that I am supporting a culture of death for voting for Obama is ludicrous. You voted for McCain who supports the death penalty. Does that not seem hypocritical to a person who should uphold the sanctity of ALL life? Being Pro-Life isn't about simply being Anti-Abortion. This is a much more complex issue than I think you understand.[/quote]
Yeah, and I suppose His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI is also being hypocritical about the life issues.

[quote]3.[b] Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.[/b] For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. [b]There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/b][/quote]

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) from a letter to the bishops on worthiness to receive communion, which excommunicated pro-abort politicians, written as Prefect of the CDF.

I suggest you [url="http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm"]read the whole letter here[/url].

And, whether you like it or not, voting for the infanticide-supporting, FOCA-supporting Obama does in fact support the culture of death.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1708604' date='Nov 23 2008, 12:22 PM']Catholics should not be single issue voters. To say that I am supporting a culture of death for voting for Obama is ludicrous. You voted for McCain who supports the death penalty. Does that not seem hypocritical to a person who should uphold the sanctity of ALL life? Being Pro-Life isn't about simply being Anti-Abortion. This is a much more complex issue than I think you understand.[/quote]
I don't know if you know this (it would appear that you don't), but there were more than two candidates/parties on the ballot.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1707988' date='Nov 22 2008, 06:16 PM']Or its another excuse for the self righteous to pat themselves on the back.[/quote]
Yeah, that's probably it.

[Luthien]

Im sorry, but if I hear one more person bring up the death penalty as being equal with the evil of abortion, Im going to flip.

To compare someone who has killed, raped, tortured, to an innocent child in the womb needs their head examined.

[Ash Wednesday]

I think many people misunderstand what it means to uphold the "sanctity of life." This does not mean taking a stance of "never kill anything under any circumstances." If this was the case, then killing in self-defense would be a problem, as would cases where the "just war" theory applies.

[Guest MJReynolds]

The rationale that I am seeing here is that a candidate could have stances that match up quite well with everything that the Catholic Church teaches but abortion and we shouldn't vote for him because of that. Fine. I get it. But I think that you guys have your Catechism a bit off on the Death Penalty. It states that it is only allowed when it must be done in order to protect society. And since we have the means to do that now-a-days without killing a person, it is rendered unnecessary and immoral. So, go ahead and "flip" because I'm comparing the two and believe in the real culture of life, not just the easy ones.

[Luthien]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1709454' date='Nov 24 2008, 01:03 PM']The rationale that I am seeing here is that a candidate could have stances that match up quite well with everything that the Catholic Church teaches but abortion and we shouldn't vote for him because of that. Fine. I get it. But I think that you guys have your Catechism a bit off on the Death Penalty. It states that it is only allowed when it must be done in order to protect society. And since we have the means to do that now-a-days without killing a person, it is rendered unnecessary and immoral. So, go ahead and "flip" because I'm comparing the two and believe in the real culture of life, not just the easy ones.[/quote]


Well I was in a mood last night, so ignore the "flip" comment. I think I said what the catechism says, in so little words. The killing of a dangerous criminal is not always intrinsically evil, while abortion always is intrinically evil.

BTW, people can escape prison.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='zwergel88' post='1707779' date='Nov 22 2008, 11:41 AM']What?!! MJReyolds stated that he/she is pro-life. Why would you go and claim that this person is something that they just said that they are not? As a matter of fact what is with people on this site trying to label people as things that they have said they are not. If I say I am pro-life please just take my word for it!! The legality of abortion is an extremely complex issue, that's not just as black and white as overturning Roe v. Wade. I agree with the poster that overturning Roe v. Wade would probably just complicate things more. This is not being "pro-culture of death" its just a legal opinion. I think that there are better ways of ending abortion such as a constitutional amendment, but I agree with the poster in this sense that I think that the first step is to increase the amount of support for pregnent women and ensure that children who are born into this country have adequent support.



This analogy is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard in my life. To diminish the horror of an event such as the Holocaust is ridiculous. There is absolutely no comparison between abortion and the Holocaust. How can you possible argue that Hitler had more compassion that doctors who perform abortions? Even if it turns out that fetal pain is a factor in late term abortions, the procedure doesn't last very long, and the child doesn't know what is happening. In Nazi Germany, people were rounded up from their houses, packed into train cars so tight that they couldn't move, and taken to concentration camps where they were forced to wait for months, enduring squalid conditions, starvation, and back-breaking work, until finally they were systematically exterminated. These were fully cognizant adults who had to live with the gnawing fear of not knowing what was going to happen to them. It must have been unbearable. How is this not worse?

How can you say that[/quote]
Of course there is a legitimate comparision between abortion and the holocaust, abortion is a holocaust! 50 MILLION CHILDREN HAVE DIED, what in the hell [ and I mean truly satanic evil so the term hell is appropriate ] do you call it - population readjustment, exercise of self personal choice etc it is mass murder on a scale of which the Nazis would be proud. Holocause is the ONLY appropriate term for what we are doing to humanity by our evil.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1708604' date='Nov 23 2008, 12:22 PM']Catholics should not be single issue voters. To say that I am supporting a culture of death for voting for Obama is ludicrous. You voted for McCain who supports the death penalty. Does that not seem hypocritical to a person who should uphold the sanctity of ALL life? Being Pro-Life isn't about simply being Anti-Abortion. This is a much more complex issue than I think you understand.[/quote]
Voting for Obama is voting for the murder of children, and the murder of our future. There is nothing wrong with a properly enforced death penalty, and that isn't the topic here. We actually do understand the issue, and since we know that the CHURCH teaches abortion is an intrinsic evil and the death penalty is NOT, we vote for life and not the promoters of mass murder such Obama, Pelosi, Biden etc.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1709609' date='Nov 24 2008, 11:54 AM']Of course there is a legitimate comparision between abortion and the holocaust, abortion is a holocaust! 50 MILLION CHILDREN HAVE DIED, what in the hell [ and I mean truly satanic evil so the term hell is appropriate ] do you call it - population readjustment, exercise of self personal choice etc it is mass murder on a scale of which the Nazis would be proud. Holocause is the ONLY appropriate term for what we are doing to humanity by our evil.[/quote]
Which ironically also stirs up emotion in the places where logic is lacking.

[daytondog]

[quote name='MJReynolds' post='1708604' date='Nov 23 2008, 12:22 PM']Catholics should not be single issue voters.[/quote]

Catholics should most definetly be single issue voters; our issue should be opposing evil at all times and at all costs.
Admonishing sinners is considered a spiritual work of mercy, so please understand me when I say that voting for Obama was a mortal sin and you should urgently seek the counsel of a priest and repent.

[daytondog]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1707988' date='Nov 22 2008, 06:16 PM']Or its another excuse for the self righteous to pat themselves on the back.[/quote]

Whose the self-righteous ones??? Those who have to twist themselves into pretzels in order to rationalize voting for Obama smack of self-righteousness as they whag their fingers at the Magesterium and claim they are more catholic than the pope for being "multi-issue voters" and having a more "accurate" "interpretation" of Catholic social teaching, then [i]those[/i] neanderthal Pro-Lifers.