bonkers Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 He has a point. To claim that God has always existed, and in the form of a Father, a Son, and a Holy Spirit is illogical. But of course, nothing is impossible for God, except to create a rock he can't lift.. BUT that's a logical contradiction, unlike the Trinity, which is perfectly logical, except for non-Christians who aren't infused with the Holy Spirit who don't have the special knowledge required to understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilllabettt Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 That whole "can God create a rock that God can't move" thing has been done. If God is perfection, then God can't change, because that would be deviation from perfection. So, God's intentions cannot change. If He wanted to create a rock that He could not move, He would create it, and it would be so. Another example: God created man with an immortal soul. God cannot change His mind and decide to annihilate man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 You missed my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 But taking your point and running with it, Christians don't understand the Trinity either. It is a great mystery. We all have some idea what "three persons, one God," means, but we don't try to explain it in too much detail. All analogies tend to fall apart, eventually. I have to go with what [b]Salterrae[/b] said and emphasize that God is love, and love is about relationship. Saying "God is love" doesn't make as much sense if you are not speaking of God as Triune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 The Trinity can't be completely comprehended but something of it can be understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='MithLuin' post='1734674' date='Dec 24 2008, 12:55 AM']Saying "God is love" doesn't make as much sense if you are not speaking of God as Triune.[/quote] Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='bonkers' post='1734691' date='Dec 24 2008, 02:18 AM']Huh?[/quote] Love doesn't exist by itself, it requires a Lover, a Beloved, and Love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1734695' date='Dec 24 2008, 02:23 AM']Love doesn't exist by itself, it requires a Lover, a Beloved, and Love.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggamafu Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 (edited) If God is truly Love - ontologically speaking - then there must be some communion of true Persons within God's Be-ing. Love - most specifically the highest form of love, charity - is a communion between persons. A single, isolated person cannot experience, let alone give (least of all [i]be[/i]) love. This is precisely why the Old Testament does not reveal that God is Love itself; without the revelation of the Trinity God can only be expected to - at the absolute most - be lov[i]ing[/i] once the universe is created. And indeed that is just the picture of God we get in the Old Testament. Although in retrospect we can read the Trinity into various passages of the Old Testament, although we can see hints of the revelation to come, until Christ came and revealed this deepest and most essential mystery of our faith there was no conception of God [i]being [/i]Love itself. Edited December 24, 2008 by Ziggamafu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
socalscout Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Looks like someone is trolling. Notice no reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1734727' date='Dec 24 2008, 09:09 AM']If God is truly Love - ontologically speaking - then there must be some communion of true Persons within God's Be-ing. Love - most specifically the highest form of love, charity - is a communion between persons. A single, isolated person cannot experience, let alone give (least of all [i]be[/i]) love.[/quote] Which is why the most fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is the nature of God and the purpose of our lives. Muslims believe we are created to serve God. We believe we are created to love God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 [quote name='mortify' post='1734695' date='Dec 24 2008, 02:23 AM']Love doesn't exist by itself, it requires a Lover, a Beloved, and Love.[/quote] But it is said the God IS love, but for love to be really love it has to be a choice. The Father didn't choose to love the son, the son didn't choose to be loved, and the love didn't choose to... love, therefore it's not really love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salterrae Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 JM + JT [quote name='bonkers' post='1734791' date='Dec 24 2008, 12:48 PM']But it is said the God IS love, but for love to be really love it has to be a choice. [i][b]The Father didn't choose to love the son, the son didn't choose to be loved, and the love didn't choose to... love[/b][/i], therefore it's not really love.[/quote] Err... And how do you know this? Are you God's conscience? God IS love because He is the perfection of love, and perfect love is always freely given... that's why it's perfect. And how/why is it that God would give us free will when He Himself does not have that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonkers Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 (edited) [quote name='salterrae' post='1734799' date='Dec 24 2008, 12:57 PM']JM + JT Err... And how do you know this? Are you God's conscience? God IS love because He is the perfection of love, and perfect love is always freely given... that's why it's perfect. And how/why is it that God would give us free will when He Himself does not have that?[/quote] Because it is said gods free will doesn't include choosing his own characteristics. i.e. he can't choose to be evil, or be anything other than what he is and always has been. If god the father didn't choose to love the god the son, then it follows logically that he doesn't really love him in the true, genuine sense, because love is always a free choice. Edited December 24, 2008 by bonkers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 (edited) That is an over simplification of the divine will. God does not need to choose love for it to be true love because his nature is love. As the highest being it would be contradictory to have a nature that is love and choose that which is not love. Even if we do not choose to be loved by God, God still loves us. We though can choose, in time, whether to love God or others, God is not bound by time, nor is he bound by choice. As his nature is eternal and not bound by time choice in this human sense does not apply and it remains that the love of the Father and the Son and the begetting of the Holy Spirit remain true love in its very highest form. (and yes, that was a simplification of a very complex philosophy and theology) Edited December 24, 2008 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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