reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 [quote name='Winchester' post='1735648' date='Dec 26 2008, 01:14 AM']Is your name reyB?[/quote] [indent]My name is Rey Baltazar C.Tolentino[/indent]
Winchester Posted December 26, 2008 Posted December 26, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1735649' date='Dec 26 2008, 12:19 AM'][indent]My name is Rey Baltazar C.Tolentino[/indent][/quote] So your name isn't CatherineM...
reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 [quote name='Winchester' post='1735583' date='Dec 25 2008, 11:27 PM']Where do you get the idea it's a refutation?[/quote] [quote name='reyb' post='1735596' date='Dec 25 2008, 11:39 PM'][indent] What do you mean, when Apostle Paul said 'Christ is the mystery of God'?[/indent][/quote] [quote name='Winchester' post='1735601' date='Dec 25 2008, 11:45 PM']Go back and reread what I posted. It's there and unchanged and you still haven't addressed it.[/quote] [quote name='CatherineM' post='1735623' date='Dec 26 2008, 12:42 AM']Sometimes authors don't mention things because they are too obvious, generally accepted, to bother repeating.[/quote] [indent] As I have said, it is possible that Apostle Paul did not refute this doctrine in all his letters because during his time this doctrine is not yet in existence. But if this doctrine is truly from God from the very beginning, even during the time of the prophets (although not yet revealed to them), then it is more likely that Apostle Paul will say something about it, otherwise he missed it. But in his (Apostle Paul) letter he said ‘Christ is the mystery of God’ while he is silent about the trinity. So, my question is…Is Apostle Paul a Trinitarian? [/indent]
CatherineM Posted December 26, 2008 Posted December 26, 2008 [quote name='Winchester' post='1735652' date='Dec 25 2008, 11:29 PM']So your name isn't CatherineM...[/quote] I haven't been called a guy in a long time.
LouisvilleFan Posted December 26, 2008 Posted December 26, 2008 (edited) [quote name='reyb' post='1735656' date='Dec 26 2008, 02:41 AM']But in his (Apostle Paul) letter he said ‘Christ is the mystery of God’ while he is silent about the trinity.[/quote] The argument from silence... that's rock solid logic. Edited December 26, 2008 by LouisvilleFan
reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 [quote name='salterrae' post='1735218' date='Dec 25 2008, 12:08 PM']JM + JT I must disagree. If you know that God is love then you know how to love because God is the perfect example of love. How is He the perfect example of love? The Trinity. (He can only BE love if He was ALWAYS love so He had to be love even before creation.)[/quote] [quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1735689' date='Dec 26 2008, 03:40 AM']I'm still waiting.[/quote] [indent]So you are telling me that this is the argument of the writer of 1 John why he said 'God is love'.[/indent]
reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1735682' date='Dec 26 2008, 02:58 AM']The argument from silence... that's rock solid logic.[/quote] [indent]If Apostle Paul said something like 'The Holy Trinity is God in mystery' then, this discussion will never even started and the entire Christianity will embrace the Holy Trinity as God or if he said something like 'Jesus is the Father himself but in human form' as in monotheistic view of oneness then there will be no Trinitarianism or any other theological views except monotheism of oneness Christians since all of you believe in this historical Jesus as the Christ. So the question is, Is Apostle Paul a believer of the Holy Trinity? Why he is ‘silent’ about it? You are correct, in that ‘silent’ the rock begins. [/indent]
Ziggamafu Posted December 26, 2008 Posted December 26, 2008 (edited) [quote name='reyb' post='1735693' date='Dec 26 2008, 06:06 AM'][indent]So you are telling me that this is the argument of the writer of 1 John why he said 'God is love'.[/indent][/quote] I gave you the only two options available to you and asked you to clarify your stance by taking one. Expecting this kind of dodge I added: [quote]Which is it? At this point it would be extremely dishonest of you not to bite the bullet, make the choice, and defend your decision.[/quote] You have not provided your position by answering my question. How very dishonest of you. [i]Let's try again:[/i] [b]Which position do you take?[/b] [u]All you have to do is either say:[/u] [b]a)[/b] God is not Love; God merely became lov[b][i]ing [/i][/b]upon creating the universe [insert demonstration of why this is the more correct belief]. [i]OR[/i] [b]b)[/b] God is Love; but only one Person [insert demonstration of how actual love can exist when there is only one person with nothing else in existence besides that person] Edited December 26, 2008 by Ziggamafu
reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1735705' date='Dec 26 2008, 08:47 AM']I gave you the only two options available to you and asked you to clarify your stance by taking one. Expecting this kind of dodge I added: You have not provided your position by answering my question. How very dishonest of you. [i]Let's try again:[/i] [b]Which position do you take?[/b] [u]All you have to do is either say:[/u] [b]a)[/b] God is not Love; God merely became lov[b][i]ing [/i][/b]upon creating the universe [insert demonstration of why this is the more correct belief]. [i]OR[/i] . [b]b)[/b] God is Love; but only one Person [insert demonstration of how actual love can exist when there is only one person with nothing else in existence besides that person][/quote] [indent] Your multiple choices are like this. -- Two boys are planning to play a hide and seek (game) but they cannot decide who will be the seeker. So they decided to toss a coin. Now, the one who holds the coin said, 'if it is head I win but, if it is tail, you lose'. Will you agree with that kind of conditon? Make your choices properly and I will choose. Thus, (again) I ask, is your argument the argument of the writer of the 1 john why he said 'God is love'? so that I can choose to your multiple choice. Because, your quiz is too hard for me to understand, maybe I will fail the test[/indent] Edited December 26, 2008 by reyb
Galloglasses' Alt Posted December 26, 2008 Posted December 26, 2008 What the hell is going on in this thread?
salterrae Posted December 26, 2008 Posted December 26, 2008 JM + JT Forget 1 John for a second, reyb. Just tell us what you believe about God being Love. There are only two choices which Ziggamafu has given you. Which is the one do you believe? [quote]a) God is not Love; God merely became loving upon creating the universe [insert demonstration of why this is the more correct belief]. OR b) God is Love; but only one Person [insert demonstration of how actual love can exist when there is only one person with nothing else in existence besides that person][/quote]
Ziggamafu Posted December 26, 2008 Posted December 26, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1735711' date='Dec 26 2008, 11:19 AM'][indent] Your multiple choices are like this. -- Two boys are planning to play a hide and seek (game) but they cannot decide who will be the seeker. So they decided to toss a coin. Now, the one who holds the coin said, 'if it is head I win but, if it is tail, you lose'. Will you agree with that kind of conditon? Make your choices properly and I will choose. Thus, (again) I ask, is your argument the argument of the writer of the 1 john why he said 'God is love'? so that I can choose to your multiple choice. Because, your quiz is too hard for me to understand, maybe I will fail the test[/indent][/quote] This is nauseating. There are two - and only two - choices if you do not believe in the Trinity. Pick one. Here, you can make it more simple: Do you believe that God is Love? Then refer to question b). Do you believe that God is not Love? Then (assuming you believe that God is, at least, loving) refer to question a). Two questions. So simple. You believe one or the other. All you have to do is be honest. Is that too difficult for you? Rather than my post itself, is it honesty that is too hard for you to understand? All you have to do is tell us what you believe. So. Simple. This will be my last substantive post in this thread unless you actually deliver. I have high hopes that you will do the right thing here, Reyb.
reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1735753' date='Dec 26 2008, 01:51 PM']This is nauseating. There are two - and only two - choices if you do not believe in the Trinity. Pick one. Here, you can make it more simple: Do you believe that God is Love? Then refer to question b). Do you believe that God is not Love? Then (assuming you believe that God is, at least, loving) refer to question a). Two questions. So simple. You believe one or the other. All you have to do is be honest. Is that too difficult for you? Rather than my post itself, is it honesty that is too hard for you to understand? All you have to do is tell us what you believe. So. Simple. This will be my last substantive post in this thread unless you actually deliver. I have high hopes that you will do the right thing here, Reyb.[/quote] [indent]Let me clarify your arguments from where you are hoping to demonstrate that God is love. You said, without the trinity God cannot be love itself or God is not love because if God is just one person, he can only be a loving God. Then you continue to say or something like this … ’If God is truly Love - ontologically speaking - then there must be some communion of true Persons within God's Be-ing’ So let us give some presentation on the above argument. God the father love his Son and God the Son love his Father It simply means that the Father is a loving God who loves his Son. And the Son, who is being loved by His Father is also a loving God who loves his Father. In short, God love himself. Is it not the same as God is a loving God who love himself? Now, how come God is love in that argument? [/indent] Edited December 26, 2008 by reyb
reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 [indent]This is the reason why I said, you give me two choices with the same answer whatever I choose. a God is not love (But a loving God who love his creation) . b. God is not love. (But a loving God who loves himself). [/indent]
reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 [indent]Why God is love? Because.... God is God and everything about God is God. The Spirit of God is God himself. The word of God is God himself, The Power of God is God himself, the wisdom of God is God himself, therefore, the love of God is God himself, Because God is God and everything about God is God. And there is no trinity there but Only God.[/indent]
salterrae Posted December 26, 2008 Posted December 26, 2008 (edited) JM + JT [quote name='reyb' post='1735844' date='Dec 26 2008, 03:30 PM']It simply means that the Father is a loving God who loves his Son. And the Son, who is being loved by His Father is also a loving God who loves his Father. In short, God love himself. Is it not the same as God is a loving God who love himself? Now, how come God is love in that argument?[/quote] Of course if God [i]is[/i] Love He will be loving. God is Love itself, the perfection of all love we know, because of this love between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is the Trinity that makes Him Love itself. But for someone who does not believe in this Trinity (which totally denies Jesus's - who is higher in authority than Apostle Paul - own words to baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit") there is no reason to call God Love itself. So to deny that God is Love is to deny the Trinity and to deny the Trinity is to deny God is Love. Edited December 26, 2008 by salterrae
reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 [quote name='salterrae' post='1735859' date='Dec 26 2008, 03:10 PM']JM + JT Of course if God [i]is[/i] Love He will be loving. God is Love itself, the perfection of all love we know, because of this love between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. [color="#0000FF"]It is the Trinity that makes Him Love itself.[/color] But for someone who does not believe in this Trinity (which totally denies Jesus's - who is higher in authority than Apostle Paul - own words to baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit") there is no reason to call God Love itself. So to deny that God is Love is to deny the Trinity and to deny the Trinity is to deny God is Love.[/quote] [indent]Can you please explain to me in what way God is love by saying 'It is the trinity that makes him love itself'? Can you please give some presentation?[/indent]
reyb Posted December 26, 2008 Author Posted December 26, 2008 [indent]From Catechism PART ONE THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH CHAPTER THREE I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT [color="#0000FF"]731 On the day of Pentecost when the seven weeks of Easter had come to an end, Christ's Passover is fulfilled in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, manifested, given, and communicated as a divine person: of his fullness, Christ, the Lord, pours out the Spirit in abundance.122 732 On that day, the Holy Trinity is fully revealed. Since that day, the Kingdom announced by Christ has been open to those who believe in him: in the humility of the flesh and in faith, they already share in the communion of the Holy Trinity. By his coming, which never ceases, the Holy Spirit causes the world to enter into the "last days," the time of the Church, the Kingdom already -inherited though not yet consummated. We have seen the true Light, we have received the heavenly Spirit, we have found the true faith: we adore the indivisible Trinity, who has saved us.123[/color] [indent]--------------[/indent] 122 Cf. Acts 2:33-36. 123 Byzantine liturgy, Pentecost Vespers, Troparion, repeated after communion.[/indent] [indent]--------------------[/indent] [indent]May I know, what ‘day’ in #732 is referring to? ‘[color="#0000FF"]On that day, the Holy Trinity is fully revealed’[/color] If it is on the day of Pentecost the Holy Trinity is fully revealed, why then Apostle Paul never mentioned anything about the Holy Trinity?[/indent]
salterrae Posted December 27, 2008 Posted December 27, 2008 (edited) JM + JT In the OT, God the Father is revealed to us. He promises God the Son (the Messiah) to us. In the Gospels, God the Son is revealed to us through the Incarnation, etc. He then promises us God the Holy Spirit. In Acts, God the Holy Spirit is revealed to us at Pentecost. That is why the Holy Trinity is fully revealed at Pentecost. Edited December 27, 2008 by salterrae
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