What If The World Didn't Need A Messiah?

[tinytherese]

So I was watching an episode of Fr. Benedict Groechel Live on EWTN when he mentioned this one theory. He said that according to a franciscan belief, if sin wasn't brought into the world and we didn't need a Messiah then Jesus still would have come but as a king instead of a savior. What does the family think of this? I really don't know. Thought that it would be an interesting topic for the debate table.

[CatherineM]

I asked my dad once what would have happened it the Jews had accepted Jesus, chosen him over Barbabas. My dad said he would have lived a long life, taught many disciples, and died in a warm bed.

[jeffpugh]

I don't think he would have died... unless you mean he was poisoned...

[CatherineM]

If you believe that he was truly human, then he would have had to die at some point.

[Mercy me]

If the world did not need a messiah then we have travelled back a long way back in salvation history.



edit: someday I will learn to type

Edited December 29, 2008 by Mercy me

[kafka]

this is a good question. I have a beginning of an answer, yet it is too late.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1737423' date='Dec 29 2008, 12:49 AM']So I was watching an episode of Fr. Benedict Groechel Live on EWTN when he mentioned this one theory. He said that according to a franciscan belief, if sin wasn't brought into the world and we didn't need a Messiah then Jesus still would have come but as a king instead of a savior. What does the family think of this? I really don't know. Thought that it would be an interesting topic for the debate table.[/quote]

Yeah, I learned a little about Franciscan Christology at a retreat several years ago. This question of whether Jesus would have come to earth and what his reign would look like if the Fall of Adam and Eve had never occured is something the Franciscans and Dominicans used to debate back in the Middle Ages. Obviously the Franciscans believed God would have still taken on flesh in Jesus and come to earth. I suppose he would have either ascended into heaven without suffering and dying or remained on earth forever. I think the Dominicans believed Jesus would not have come to earth. This is one of those areas of theology that's open to speculation, and even though we can't answer the question definitively, I think it helps us understand Jesus' role in our fallen world.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1737432' date='Dec 29 2008, 12:56 AM']I asked my dad once what would have happened it the Jews had accepted Jesus, chosen him over Barbabas. My dad said he would have lived a long life, taught many disciples, and died in a warm bed.[/quote]

Of course, it's an impossible scenario. Since the Fall, we were destined to reject Christ when he came into our world. Fortunately, through this second rebellion against God we gained our salvation.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1737495' date='Dec 29 2008, 02:32 AM']If you believe that he was truly human, then he would have had to die at some point.[/quote]

Surprised you didn't catch yourself on this one... death is the result of sin. Mary was truly human, never sinned, and never died. Jesus was fully human, never sinned, but died for our sin. We need to be careful about falling into the common trap of correlating humanity with sin. We were created with the highest dignity in God's image. "Being human" or "only human" doesn't mean making mistakes or sinning; it really means we are visible images of the invisible God.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1737495' date='Dec 29 2008, 02:32 AM']If you believe that he was truly human, then he would have had to die at some point.[/quote]

I still don't He would have died like that, if the jews or anyone else did not have Him put on the Cross.

1 He would have been taken into heaven, like great prophets before Him, but He would have taken Himself into heaven. 2 If He had a glorified body He would not die. 3. If Adam and Eve did not fall there would be no death.

Edited December 29, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

But I do agree that He would have likely lived a long life (if not killed by Pagans/Romans), and He would have taught many more disciples.

[puellapaschalis]

I think He would have come anyway - I don't much like the idea of the Incarnation being Plan B.

[Didacus]

How long did Adam and Eve live on earth until the fall? A few days? A few centuries?

If not for the fall, wouldn't they have endured the harshness of heaven on earth indefinately all by themselves and none of us would have come into being?

[Galloglasses' Alt]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1737628' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:35 AM']How long did Adam and Eve live on earth until the fall? A few days? A few centuries?

If not for the fall, wouldn't they have endured the harshness of heaven on earth indefinately all by themselves and none of us would have come into being?[/quote]
I'm pretty sure they'd have children eventually.

[frenchfry]

I tend to think He wouldn't have come if it weren't for our sins. I think one of the beautiful things about the incarnation is that God used something terrible - sin - as an occasion to do something wonderful. If you believe that He would have come either way, then that's no longer true.

It's sort of the same thing with the Jews accepting Jesus. God used this bad situation to carry out the ultimate, and very necessary, sacrifice of His lamb. If they had accepted Jesus and he lived a long life, dying quietly, there would be no sacrifice, and no salvation!

I think it's interesting to consider whether Adam and Eve would have had children. I mean, it seems obvious that they would, but if no one ever died, they would have to stop eventually or the world would run out of space to hold them all...or what if they had had children before the fall, and then there were the kids who inherited original sin and the prior ones who didn't?? I think that would be an interesting book plot.

[kafka]

I thought about this a bit today and I have come to a conclusion that yes if Adam had not sinned the Son of God would still have become a man.

Now I think the interesting question is why? Or for what purpose? I think the answer is simple. In fact so simple it is seemingly elusive (and different or perhaps more than Christ being King). Does anyone have any idea?

I do, yet I need a little time to formulate my own answer. . .

Til then what are your ideas?

[LouisvilleFan]

Well, we know some things for sure: Jesus is eternal, so there's no question about his existence. Therefore, it stands to reason he probably would come to earth, so the more pertinent question may be the nature of his mission on earth.

A few thoughts I have: Marriage as an institution would be unnecessary as husbands and wives would by naturally inclined to permanent, open, monogamous, life-giving relationships. If Jesus was born of Mary, the Immaculate Conception is unnecessary, and obviously the world would fully accept and embrace Jesus and everything he taught. While the Church would be unnecessary since there would be no sinners, would we still receive the Eucharist? That's an interesting question.

Regardless, this world would still pass away eventually and Christ would return to establish the new heavens and new earth as prophesied in Revelation. That's when marital relations and child bearing would cease, just as Jesus has revealed to us.

[Mercy me]

[quote name='kafka' post='1738294' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:16 PM']I thought about this a bit today and I have come to a conclusion that yes if Adam had not sinned the Son of God would still have become a man.

Now I think the interesting question is why? Or for what purpose? I think the answer is simple. In fact so simple it is seemingly elusive (and different or perhaps more than Christ being King). Does anyone have any idea?

I do, yet I need a little time to formulate my own answer. . .

Til then what are your ideas?[/quote]

If not for the fall man where man separated himself from God, man would not need a messiah.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1738878' date='Dec 30 2008, 11:46 AM']If not for the fall man where man separated himself from God, man would not need a messiah.[/quote]

But, Jesus would still exist anyway because he is eternal.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738883' date='Dec 30 2008, 11:11 AM']But, Jesus would still exist anyway because he is eternal.[/quote]

With this in mind, I think Jesus - as well as the Holy Spirit - would be made known to mankind at some point [b]even if[/b] sin did not exist.

Also to throw this out there, if Adam and Eve did not sin, then we can ponder not only (a) they were victorious in the face of temptation but (b) they were never tempted ; therefore perhaps Lucifer never rebelled.

[KnightofChrist]

I believe it is undeniable that Christ, and The Holy Spirit would at some point reveal themselves, since they are both eternal and exist. It would have likely been much sooner. That is if Christ and the Holy Spirit did not already reveal themselves to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, then later forgotten. After all it was heaven on earth.

Edited December 30, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[frenchfry]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738645' date='Dec 30 2008, 05:43 AM']Well, we know some things for sure: Jesus is eternal, so there's no question about his existence. Therefore, it stands to reason he probably would come to earth, so the more pertinent question may be the nature of his mission on earth.

A few thoughts I have: Marriage as an institution would be unnecessary as husbands and wives would by naturally inclined to permanent, open, monogamous, life-giving relationships. If Jesus was born of Mary, the Immaculate Conception is unnecessary, and obviously the world would fully accept and embrace Jesus and everything he taught. While the Church would be unnecessary since there would be no sinners, would we still receive the Eucharist? That's an interesting question.

Regardless, this world would still pass away eventually and Christ would return to establish the new heavens and new earth as prophesied in Revelation. That's when marital relations and child bearing would cease, just as Jesus has revealed to us.[/quote]

Jesus as divine is eternal, but Jesus as man is not - meaning that his body did not exist from before the beginning of time. It makes no sense logically - his body changed while he was on Earth, and anything eternal has to be unchanging. And just because his divine nature is eternal, that does not mean that he would come to Earth - God the Father is eternal, and He never came to Earth.

And I'm not sure that marriage exists only as a solution to a problem. Anyway, how is an open, life-giving, lasting, monogamous relationship different from a "marriage"? This is an actual question, not an argument. It's not the blessing of the Church, because Israelites and even pagans could be married before She existed.

And why would the Earth necessarily pass away if no one had ever sinned? I think people may have existed in the Eden state forever.

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1738981' date='Dec 30 2008, 02:54 PM']With this in mind, I think Jesus - as well as the Holy Spirit - would be made known to mankind at some point [b]even if[/b] sin did not exist.[/quote]

Being "made known" does not imply an incarnation. Adam and Eve knew God, as did the Israelites, but He was not incarnated. The Holy Spirit did not depend on the incarnation to be made known. People could have been baptized and received Him without this, or even received Him at birth, if God willed it.


This is such an interesting topic!