What If The World Didn't Need A Messiah?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='frenchfry' post='1739005' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:51 PM']Jesus as divine is eternal, but Jesus as man is not - meaning that his body did not exist from before the beginning of time. It makes no sense logically - his body changed while he was on Earth, and anything eternal has to be unchanging. And just because his divine nature is eternal, that does not mean that he would come to Earth - God the Father is eternal, and He never came to Earth.[/quote]

Jesus always had two natures: divine and human. That's the unchanging part. His body on earth, being human in nature, could change just as wine can change into Christ's Body and Blood and change back to water if it's diluted beyond the appearance of wine.

[quote name='frenchfry' post='1739005' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:51 PM']And I'm not sure that marriage exists only as a solution to a problem. Anyway, how is an open, life-giving, lasting, monogamous relationship different from a "marriage"? This is an actual question, not an argument. It's not the blessing of the Church, because Israelites and even pagans could be married before She existed.[/quote]

Well, I say that because the institution of marriage seems to have been established to enforce by law how God intended for husbands and wives to live in relationship with each other.

[quote name='frenchfry' post='1739005' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:51 PM']And why would the Earth necessarily pass away if no one had ever sinned? I think people may have existed in the Eden state forever.[/quote]

I'm not certain on either of these, but my main reason for suggesting this possibility is the earth can only hold so many people, and in fulfilling God's commandment to "be fruitful and multiply," Adam and Eve's descendents would eventually run out of space. Therefore, I reckon God always had planned a "new heavens and new earth" a superior creation.

Of course, perhaps people would be assumed into heaven like Mary, but that only seems to strengthen the case for a second creation.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='frenchfry' post='1739005' date='Dec 30 2008, 02:51 PM']Being "made known" does not imply an incarnation. Adam and Eve knew God, as did the Israelites, but He was not incarnated. The Holy Spirit did not depend on the incarnation to be made known. People could have been baptized and received Him without this, or even received Him at birth, if God willed it.[/quote]

I was not implying an incarnation.

[kafka]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1738878' date='Dec 30 2008, 10:46 AM']If not for the fall man where man separated himself from God, man would not need a messiah.[/quote]
true. Yet God is not contingent. He is not dependant. It is not as if man does something therefore God does something in reaction. God is One Divine Eternal Act. Everything He is and does is One. In God being is doing and doing is being. He creates since He is creative, He loves since He is love. It would be impossible for Him not to create since it is against His very Nature. And in my opinion it is impossible that the Son of God would not have become Man since for Him not to become Man would in a way contradict His Nature, namely Love, Mercy, Justice, etc. The only reason or purpose God does is God. He is His own reason, His own purpose. I dont think this hypothetical could be completely explained by faith aided reason since Jesus Christ will always be dark (mysterious) even to the greatest of Saints.

I want to work on formulating this point to a greater degree of clarity.


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1738883' date='Dec 30 2008, 11:11 AM']But, Jesus would still exist anyway because he is eternal.[/quote]
As Frenchfry pointed out His Divine Nature is eternal, his human nature had a beginning. Still you sort of make a point. The Divine and Human Natures are mystically united, therefore Jesus Christ is in a way beyond time and place:

:all that Christ is—all that he did and suffered for all men—participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times."
-JPII from Ecclesia de Eucharistia

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1738990' date='Dec 30 2008, 02:15 PM']I believe it is undeniable that Christ, and The Holy Spirit would at some point reveal themselves, since they are both eternal and exist. It would have likely been much sooner. That is if Christ and the Holy Spirit did not already reveal themselves to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, then later forgotten. After all it was heaven on earth.[/quote]
But why?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739046' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:50 PM']But why?

[/quote]

Because without sin man could have been in full communion with all of God, and Christ is God.

[kafka]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1739048' date='Dec 30 2008, 03:53 PM']Because without sin man could have been in full communion with all of God, and Christ is God.[/quote]
I would like to correct this point you make. There is a mystic union between the Divine and Human natures of Christ, yet it is not a full communion. Nothing created can be in full/complete union with the Uncreated. Nothing created can contain God. Even the indwelling of the Holy Spirit the spiritual writers like to write about is figurative.

Edited December 30, 2008 by kafka

[Apotheoun]

Theosis (divinization) is not figurative; rather, it involves a real ontological participation of man in God. Thus, when a man participates in the uncreated energy of God he truly becomes divine and uncreated, i.e., he becomes by grace what God is by nature.

As St. Gregory Palamas explained:

"According to the divine Maximos, the Logos of well-being, by grace is present unto the worthy, bearing God, Who is by nature above all beginning and end, Who makes those who by nature have a beginning and an end become by grace without beginning and without end, because the Great Paul also, no longer living the life in time, but the divine and eternal life of the indwelling Logos, became by grace without beginning and without end; and Melchisedek had neither beginning of days, nor end of life, not because of his created nature, according to which he began and ceased to exist, but because of the divine and uncreated and eternal grace which is above all nature and time, being from the eternal God. Paul, therefore, was created only as long as he lived the life created from non-being by the command of God. But when he no longer lived this life, but that which is present by the indwelling of God, he became uncreated by grace, as did also Melchisedek and everyone who comes to possess the Logos of God, alone living and acting within himself." [St. Gregory Palamas, [i]Third Letter to Akindynos[/i]]

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1739068' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:38 PM']Theosis (divinization) is not figurative; rather, it involves a real ontological participation of man in God. Thus, when a man participates in the uncreated energy of God he truly becomes divine and uncreated, i.e., he becomes by grace what God is by nature.

As St. Gregory Palamas explained:

"According to the divine Maximos, the Logos of well-being, by grace is present unto the worthy, bearing God, Who is by nature above all beginning and end, Who makes those who by nature have a beginning and an end become by grace without beginning and without end, because the Great Paul also, no longer living the life in time, but the divine and eternal life of the indwelling Logos, became by grace without beginning and without end; and Melchisedek had neither beginning of days, nor end of life, not because of his created nature, according to which he began and ceased to exist, but because of the divine and uncreated and eternal grace which is above all nature and time, being from the eternal God. Paul, therefore, was created only as long as he lived the life created from non-being by the command of God. But when he no longer lived this life, but that which is present by the indwelling of God, he became uncreated by grace, as did also Melchisedek and everyone who comes to possess the Logos of God, alone living and acting within himself." [St. Gregory Palamas, [i]Third Letter to Akindynos[/i]][/quote]
St. Gregory Palamas was wrong on this particular point.

It is illogical, I even dare say phantasmal to think that which had a beginning and an end could be made to have no no beginning and no end. No beginning and no end is Eternity who is God. Grace has an effect on the soul-body-spirit of a human to make him like God or like Jesus Christ, it does not turn us into God or Christ which is the only sober (albeit erroneous) conclusion one could come to in St Gregory's quoted passage above.

In Heaven we will be with God who is Eternity, and we will participate in a transcendent of Time and Place in for a lack of better word "container" of Heaven, yet our human nature will not transcend Time and Place. Our nature will never be completely beyond Time and Place, since God alone is Eternal in the true and complete sense of the word.

There is no ontological participation in the Divine Nature. It is both impossible and illogical, and I dare say arrogant (perhaps pantheistic) to think this way.

Edited December 30, 2008 by kafka

[Mercy me]

[quote name='kafka' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:50 PM' post='1739046']
And in my opinion it is impossible that the Son of God would not have become Man since for Him not to become Man would in a way contradict His Nature, namely Love, Mercy, Justice, etc. The only reason or purpose God does is God. He is His own reason, His own purpose. I dont think this hypothetical could be completely explained by faith aided reason since Jesus Christ will always be dark (mysterious) even to the greatest of Saints.
/quote]

I am sorry if my response was unclear.

I meant that a messiah was not needed as Adam and Eve were in full communion with God. I agree that would in no way preclude the Son of God becoming man. However, if not for the fall His role would not have been as messiah since man did not need saving.

I agree that there is a likelihood that Adam and Eve knew Jesus as they knew the Father.

[kafka]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1739079' date='Dec 30 2008, 05:00 PM']I am sorry if my response was unclear.

I meant that a messiah was not needed as Adam and Eve were in full communion with God. I agree that would in no way preclude the Son of God becoming man. However, if not for the fall His role would not have been as messiah since man did not need saving.

I agree that there is a likelihood that Adam and Eve knew Jesus as they knew the Father.[/quote]
no problem. I am trying to be as exact as possible since there are many errors in the Church during these times we live in. Again I disagree with the wording "full communion with God" which I've explained in my above posts.

I'm not sure what the role of Christ would be in this hypothetical

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739076' date='Dec 30 2008, 02:56 PM']St. Gregory Palamas was wrong on this particular point.[/quote]
I hold that you are wrong and St. Gregory (along with all the Eastern Fathers who teach the same thing) is right.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739076' date='Dec 30 2008, 02:56 PM']There is no ontological participation in the Divine Nature. It is both impossible and illogical, and I dare say arrogant (perhaps pantheistic) to think this way.[/quote]
I will go with sacred scripture when it says that in Christ we "become partakers of the divine nature." [2 Peter 1:4]

There is nothing pantheistic in the teaching of the Eastern Fathers, for our participation in the divine nature is through the divine energy. Only if one subscribes to the view that the divine essence is the whole of the Godhead, an idea founded upon the pagan philosophy of the Greeks and not upon sacred scripture, would one have to believe that [i]theosis[/i] involves pantheism.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1739111' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:04 PM']I hold that you are wrong and St. Gregory (along with all the Eastern Fathers who teach the same thing) is right.[/quote]
but still have you given consideration to my comments?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739119' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:08 PM']but still have you given consideration to my comments?[/quote]
I have responded to your comments, because I have made it clear that I reject your theology which confuses essence and energy in God.

As St. Gregory pointed out to the heretics Akindynos and Barlaam (who held a position similar to your own): "Essence is necessarily being, but being is not necessarily essence"; in other words, "not everything which is predicated of God is essence." [St. Gregory, [i]Contra Akindynum[/i] II:10, and [i]Capita Physica[/i] 127]

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1739117' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:07 PM']I will go with sacred scripture when it says that in Christ we "become partakers of the divine nature." [2 Peter 1:4]

There is nothing pantheistic in the teaching of the Eastern Fathers, for our participation in the divine nature is through the divine energy. Only if one subscribes to the view that the divine essence is the whole of the Godhead, an idea founded upon the pagan philosophy of the Greeks and not sacred scripture, would one have to believe that [i]theosis[/i] involves pantheism.[/quote]
{1:2} Grace to you. And may peace be fulfilled according to the plan of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord,
{1:3} in the same manner that all things which are for life and piety have been given to us by his Divine virtue, through the plan of him who has called us to our own glory and virtue.
{1:4} Through Christ, he has given us the greatest and most precious promises, so that by these things you may become sharers in the Divine nature, fleeing from the corruption of that desire which is in the world.

~as you well know not every verse of Scripture is literal. In this context the Spirit is teaching us that by grace (referred to above as Divine virtue) we become a "sharer" or "partaker" in the Divine Nature through Christ in the sense that we become holy and beyond concupiscence, and the influences of the world and not in a literal sense that we become Divine as God is. We DO NOT literally become Divine in nature. From an ontological point of view Human nature is holy. God designed us to live in a way that grace would always effect us to be like Him if we would choose and accept this gift of His. This is made more difficult because of the influences of the flesh-world-fallen angels, which we became susceptible after the Fall. Hence the Sacraments.

A soul without the state of grace is like a fish out of water, yet a soul in the state of grace remains a fish in water. A human living in the state of grace does not transcend into a nature beyond itself, much less God himself.

I dont like the terminology of some of the Eastern Fathers. The Church as a whole has advanced in wisdom and understanding since their time.

Edited December 30, 2008 by kafka

[Apotheoun]

Below are the Chapters of the [i]Synodikon of Orthodoxy[/i], which is chanted on the Sunday of Orthodoxy throughout the Christian East, against the heretics Akindynos and Barlaam:


To Barlaam and Akindynos and to their followers and successors,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


To those who at times think and say that the light which shone forth from the Lord at His Divine transfiguration is an apparition, a thing created, and a phantom which appears for an instant and then immediately vanishes, and who at other times think and say that this light is the very essence of God, and thus dementedly cast themselves into entirely contradictory and impossible positions; to such men who, on the one hand, raving with Arios' madness, sever the one Godhead and the one God into created and uncreated, and who, on the other hand, are entangled in the impiety of the Messalians who assert that the Divine essence is visible, and who moreover, do not confess, in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that that supremely Divine light is neither a created thing, nor the essence of God, but is rather uncreated and natural grace, illumination, and energy which everlastingly and inseparably proceeds from the very essence of God,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that God has no natural energy, but is nought but essence, who suppose the Divine essence and the Divine energy to be entirely identical and undistinguishable and with no apprehensible difference between them; who call the same thing at times essence and at times energy, and who senselessly abolish the very essence of God and reduce it to non-being, for, as the teachers of the Church say, "Only non-being is deprived of an energy," to these men who think as did Sabellios, and who dare now to renew his ancient contraction, confusion and coalescing of the three Hypostaseis of the Godhead upon the essence and energy of God by confounding them in an equally impious manner; to these men who do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that in God there is both essence and essential, natural energy, as a great many of the saints, and especially all those who gathered at the Sixth Ecumenical Council, have clearly explained with respect to Christ's two energies, both Divine and human, and His two wills; to those then who in nowise wish to comprehend that, even as there is an unconfused union of God's essence and energy, so is there also an undivided distinction between them, for, among other things, essence is cause while energy is effect, essence suffers no participation, while energy is communicable; to those, therefore, who profess such impieties,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that every natural power and energy of the Tri-hypostatic Godhead is created, and thereby are constrained to believe that the very essence of God is also created, since, according to the saints, created energy evidences a created nature, whereas uncreated energy designates an uncreated nature; to these men who, in consequence, are in danger now of falling into complete atheism, who have affixed the mythology of the Greeks and the worship of creatures to the pure and spotless faith of the Christians and who do not confess, in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that every natural power and energy of the Tri-hypostatic Godhead is uncreated,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that through these pious doctrines a compounding comes to pass in God, for they do not comply with the teaching of the saints, that no compounding occurs in a nature from its natural properties; to such men who thereby lay false accusation not only against us, but against all the saints who, at great length and on many occasions, have most lucidly restated both the doctrine of God's simplicity and uncompoundedness and the distinction of the Divine essence and energy, in such a manner so that this distinction in no way destroys the Divine simplicity, for otherwise, they would contradict their own teaching; to such, therefore, as speak these empty words and do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that the Divine simplicity is most excellently preserved in this God-befitting distinction,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that the name 'Godhead' or 'Divinity' can be applied only to the essence of God, but who do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that this appellation equally pertains to the Divine energy, and that thus one Godhead: of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is by all means still professed, whether one apply the name 'Godhead' to Their essence, or to Their energy, as the divine expounders of the mysteries have instructed us,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


Again, to those same men who think and say that the essence of God is communicable, and who thus without shame strive to subtly introduce into our Church the impiety of the Messalians, who of old suffered from the malady of this same opinion, and who thus do not confess in accord with the divinely-inspired theologies of the saints and the pious mind of the Church, that the essence of God is wholly inapprehensible and incommunicable, whereas the grace and energy of God are communicable,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


To all the impious words and writings of these men,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema


To Isaac, surnamed Argyros, who suffered throughout his life with the malady of Barlaam and Akindynos, and though at the end of his life the Church asked, as formerly she had often done, for his return and repentance, he nevertheless remained obdurate in his impiety and in the profession of his heresy, and wretchedly vomited forth his soul,

Anathema, Anathema, Anathema

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739127' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:26 PM']I dont like the terminology of some of the Eastern Fathers. The Church as a whole has advanced in wisdom and understanding since their time.[/quote]
That you do not like the "terminology" of the Eastern Fathers is irrelevant. Just as your opinion that the Church has "advanced" in wisdom and understanding is irrelevant. I accept the faith that was delivered once for all to the saints (Jude 1:3). The faith is one and immutable.

I confess, with St. Basil the Great, that: ". . . there is a distinction between the essence ([i]ousia[/i]) and each one of the attributes enumerated. The energies ([i]energeiai[/i]) are various, and the essence ([i]ousia[/i]) simple, but we say that we know our God from His energies ([i]energeiai[/i]), but do not undertake to approach near to His essence ([i]ousia[/i]). His energies ([i]energeiai[/i]) come down to us, but His essence ([i]ousia[/i]) remains beyond our reach." [St. Basil, [i]Letter[/i] 234]

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

{1:2} Grace to you. And may peace be fulfilled according to the plan of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord,
{1:3} in the same manner that all things which are for life and piety have been given to us by his Divine virtue, through the plan of him who has called us to our own glory and virtue.
{1:4} Through Christ, he has given us the greatest and most precious promises, so that by these things you may become sharers in the Divine nature, fleeing from the corruption of that desire which is in the world.

~as you well know not every verse of Scripture is literal. In this context the Spirit is teaching us that by grace (referred to above as Divine virtue) we become a "sharer" or "partaker" in the Divine Nature through Christ in the sense that we become holy and beyond concupiscence, and the influences of the world and not in a literal sense that we become Divine as God is. We DO NOT literally become Divine in nature. From an ontological point of view Human nature is holy. God designed us to live in a way that grace would always effect us to be like Him if we would choose and accept this gift of His. This is made more difficult because of the influences of the flesh-world-fallen angels, which we became susceptible after the Fall. Hence the Sacraments.

A soul without the state of grace is like a fish out of water, yet a soul in the state of grace remains a fish in water. A human living in the state of grace does not transcend into a nature beyond itself, much less God himself.

I dont like the terminology of some of the Eastern Fathers. The Church as a whole has advanced in wisdom and understanding since their time.


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1739130' date='Dec 30 2008, 06:32 PM']That you do not like the "terminology" of the Eastern Fathers is irrelevant. Just as your opinion that the Church has "advanced" in wisdom and understanding is irrelevant. I accept the faith that was delivered once for all to the saints (Jude 1:3). The faith is one and immutable.[/quote]
No it is relevant. The Faith does not depend upon theological terms.

The Faith is one and immutable yet it is dark and deep. It is deeper than the ocean, and more mysterious than a dense forest. One could spend everyday of ones life meditating upon Tradition-Scripture-Magisterium, and always learn something new. All men of all times put together will never completely fathom the truths of the Faith. Even the BVM cannot completely fathom Christ and the Church. She might not even be able to fathom her own mystery.

The Church grows in wisdom and understanding and grace and strength just as Christ did in his Human nature.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739132' date='Dec 30 2008, 04:42 PM']No it is relevant. The Faith does not depend upon theological terms.[/quote]
No, your views on this are not relevant, because the Magisterium cannot alter the biblical terms used in divine revelation, and energy (energeia) is a biblical term.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

The Song of Songs
{1:8}O daughters of Jerusalem: I am black, but shapely, like the tabernacles of Kedar, like the tents of Solomon.
{1:9} Do not be concerned that I am dark, for the sun has changed my color.
{1:10} The sons of my mother have fought against me. They have made me the keeper of the vineyards. My own vineyard I have not kept.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='kafka' post='1739085' date='Dec 30 2008, 05:08 PM']I am trying to be as exact as possible since there are many errors in the Church during these times we live in.[/quote]

The Church is infallible.