HisChildForever Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1768732' date='Feb 1 2009, 04:51 PM']That is what I believed when I was a Protestant.[/quote] Excuse me, but are you trying to insinuate something? If Tinkerlina is speaking something contrary to Church teaching, God has the final say. Only He can read her heart and truly discern whether or not she is simply confused or being purposefully disobediant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1768739' date='Feb 1 2009, 02:54 PM']Excuse me, but are you trying to insinuate something?[/quote] I was not insinuating anything; instead, I simply made a statement of fact in connection with your comment (and not anything said by Tink). God acts through His Church (i.e., through the bishops in apostolic succession). Sadly, when I was a Protestant I denied this truth of faith, holding that I did not need priests and bishops in order to be forgiven of my sins or know the truth which Christ revealed, but I accepted that I was wrong on this issue upon becoming Catholic in 1988. God grant you many happy years. Edited February 1, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 It is my personal opinion that the SSPX needs to accept the teachings of the Church, including the Second Vatican Council. Nothing more, nothing less. This does not include historical facts which are not connected with divine revelation. And from what has been written in various news articles, it appears that this is what is going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1768743' date='Feb 1 2009, 04:59 PM']I was not insinuating anything; instead, I simply made a statement of fact in connection with your comment (and not anything said by Tink).[/quote] A statement of fact which was irrelevant. [quote]God acts through His Church (i.e., through the bishops in apostolic succession). Sadly, when I was a Protestant I denied this truth of faith, holding that I did not need priests and bishops in order to be forgiven of my sins or know the truth which Christ revealed, but I accepted that I was wrong on this issue upon becoming Catholic in 1988.[/quote] And no one here is denying that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1768755' date='Feb 1 2009, 03:10 PM'][quote name='Apotheoun' post='1768743' date='Feb 1 2009, 02:59 PM'] God acts through His Church (i.e., through the bishops in apostolic succession). Sadly, when I was a Protestant I denied this truth of faith, holding that I did not need priests and bishops in order to be forgiven of my sins or know the truth which Christ revealed, but I accepted that I was wrong on this issue upon becoming Catholic in 1988.[/quote] And no one here is denying that. [/quote] Your original post indicated that being a "heretic" was between Tink and God, and that statement is false, because it is between Tink and the Church, which acts in the place of God. Nevertheless, I am happy to see that you agree with my comment quoted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1768711' date='Feb 1 2009, 05:39 PM']What, exactly, does this mean?[/quote] [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1768707' date='Feb 1 2009, 05:37 PM']What exactly is the false "spirit" of Vatican II? If we all agree that the Holy Spirit is and has been guiding the magisterium, this includes Vatican II, right? -Katie[/quote] The Holy Spirit guided Her Church and Magesterium throughout all of history, yes, including the years of The Second Vatican Council. I have no doubt that the changes inspired during those times were to the benefit of the Church and Her people. It is how some people "interpreted" and contorted these changes that was detrimental. For instance, one didn't seem to encounter these things: -the Clown mass [img]http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images%20(101-200)/199-ClownMass.jpg[/img] -the "Miley Cyrus" Mass [img]http://www.recongress.org/2005/pix/ydlit/med_P2170221.jpg[/img] -"catholic" politicians who oppose some of the most fundamental social teachings of the church [img]http://www.yosemite.org/newsroom/clips2006/july/PelosiHetchy.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.kurdnas.com/en/images/stories/JoeBidenLrg.jpg[/img] [img]http://medializzy.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/581px-ted_kennedy_official_photo_portrait.jpg[/img] and less severely, -Cathedrals that look like this: [img]http://www.hughpearman.com/illustrations5/la%20cathedral1a%20.jpg[/img] -religious "habits" that look like this: [img]http://www.dcwcp.org/images/council.jpg[/img] Mind you, the latter two aren't as severe as the first few, but they still embody the spirit of informality and personal liberty that the 2VC was never intended to grant. Edited February 1, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1768754' date='Feb 1 2009, 06:10 PM']It is my personal opinion that the SSPX needs to accept the teachings of the Church, including the Second Vatican Council. Nothing more, nothing less. This does not include historical facts which are not connected with divine revelation. And from what has been written in various news articles, it appears that this is what is going to happen.[/quote] I agree. While I can not imagine denying the travesty of humanity that is the Holocaust, I don't see how it would preclude one from being a bishop, as accepting the holocaust is not a matter of divine revelation. It would be the same if a bishop denied that slavery ever existed or that there were massive stores of candy at the bottom of the ocean - it might not make much sense, but if he is a faithful professor of the things that the Church teaches,(and doesn't go round preaching these things about whatever the issue is, holocaust, slavery, or candy) what is the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Just because Vatican II and those unfortunate occurrences are correlated, does not mean there is causation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 (Psst, don't forget the giant scary puppets...while watching that video, I was almost hoping they'd fall over and crush the weird dancing woman going down the aisle.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1768780' date='Feb 1 2009, 03:28 PM'](Psst, don't forget the giant scary puppets...while watching that video, I was almost hoping they'd fall over and crush the weird dancing woman going down the aisle.)[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Don't forget the Mass (or "Mass". The matter for the Sacrament looked kind of fishy) with strobe lights either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1768715' date='Feb 1 2009, 05:41 PM']Alright, sorry for the misunderstanding. I probably am a heretic in some sense anyway. -Katie[/quote] If you are, you don't have to be. Choosing obedience for me was the hardest and easiest thing in the world. I have an anti-authoritarian streak a mile wide, remember I grew up in the 60's . I think the Holy Spirit must have had a good chuckle at that point. But none of the other spiritual choices out there hold a candle to the Catholic Church, they all wilt under scrutiny. No one else has history, authority, and an unchanging truth for 2000 years. One day it came to me that it was a simple matter of saying I didn't have to understand all the theology, or the detailed history etc, and it wasn't a requirement. I didn't have to understand alll the details BEFORE I believed it. I just had to trust that the Holy Spirit was overseeing the whole deal. Once I decided that part the rest is easy. Once I made that decision and started following the teachings of the Church, the theolgy and history made more sense. Doing led to understanding. For if God is for us, who can be against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1768784' date='Feb 1 2009, 05:29 PM'][/quote] Seriously! If I had been tricked into going to a "mass" like that (note lowercase 'm' and quotations), I would be super obnoxious and shout "ABUSE" every time I saw one. Granted the big puppets might come chasing after me, but add a little extra weight to their huge heads and they'd topple right over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1768792' date='Feb 1 2009, 04:38 PM']Seriously! If I had been tricked into going to a "mass" like that (note lowercase 'm' and quotations), I would be super obnoxious and shout "ABUSE" every time I saw one. Granted the big puppets might come chasing after me, but add a little extra weight to their huge heads and they'd topple right over.[/quote] No matter how many liturgical abuses there are, if they're real priests saying the actual words, it's a valid mass. I think shouting ABUSE would be disrespectful to the Eucharist. Sure, you wouldn't ever come back... but a poor mass is a wonderful mass nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1768885' date='Feb 1 2009, 05:59 PM']No matter how many liturgical abuses there are, if they're real priests saying the actual words, it's a valid mass. I think shouting ABUSE would be disrespectful to the Eucharist. Sure, you wouldn't ever come back... but a poor mass is a wonderful mass nonetheless.[/quote] It depends upon the level of the abuse. If the priest does something that effects the validity of the sacrament, e.g., suppose he does not intend to do what the Church does with the sacrament, then the abuse in question invalidates the sacrament. Edited February 2, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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