Vincent Vega Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771267' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:31 PM']Oh I'd say executing anyone under 175 is immoral and unnecessary in America...[/quote] Agreed. According to the state, though, you can be killed at as young as a couple of days, for the crime of preparing for birth when your mother doesn't want you to.
Nihil Obstat Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 [quote name='qfnol31' post='1778501' date='Feb 10 2009, 10:34 PM']If I were 13 and looking at a life sentence, I might almost prefer death.[/quote] That's not really how we look at it though... They'd probably think they would prefer that, but at the end of the day... doubt it.
KnightofChrist Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 (edited) Again, Abortion and The Death Penalty are not the same thing, nor are they by any means on the same level. But it would seem that some here are still confusing and blurring the lines between the two. Abortion is unquestionably and always, always, always, immoral. The Death Penalty when used justly is moral, even if you are personal for it or against it. Edited February 11, 2009 by KnightofChrist
Vincent Vega Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1778558' date='Feb 11 2009, 01:46 AM']Again, Abortion and The Death Penalty are not the same thing, nor are they by any means on the same level. But it would seem that some here are still confusing and blurring the lines between the two.[/quote] If you're referring to my post, you're preaching to the choir. I'm still anti-death penalty, at least in this country. It is an unnecessary punitive measure in a country where we have more than enough security in our prisons to contain even the most cunning criminals that is typically just exacted for some feeling of revenge. The evil of abortion still trumps it by degrees of magnitude, though.
KnightofChrist Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1779239' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:12 PM']If you're referring to my post, you're preaching to the choir. I'm still anti-death penalty, at least in this country. It is an unnecessary punitive measure in a country where we have more than enough security in our prisons to contain even the most cunning criminals that is typically just exacted for some feeling of revenge. The evil of abortion still trumps it by degrees of magnitude, though.[/quote] It was to others as well, thanks for clearing it up. And to sum up the last couple pages. Punishment (capital or otherwise) has the [b]primary[/b] aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. Protecting society is very important but it is not the primary reason. Non-violent criminals in prison and prison guards are just as much as part of society, as those outside prison and must be protected.
Tinkerlina Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1779239' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:12 PM']If you're referring to my post, you're preaching to the choir. I'm still anti-death penalty, at least in this country. It is an unnecessary punitive measure in a country where we have more than enough security in our prisons to contain even the most cunning criminals that is typically just exacted for some feeling of revenge. The evil of abortion still trumps it by degrees of magnitude, though.[/quote] Agreed. -Katie
Tinkerlina Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1779243' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:20 PM']It was to others as well, thanks for clearing it up. And to sum up the last couple pages. Punishment (capital or otherwise) has the [b]primary[/b] aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. Protecting society is very important but it is not the primary reason. Non-violent criminals in prison and prison guards are just as much as part of society, as those outside prison and must be protected.[/quote] Wouldn't the aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense be to protect society? -Katie
KnightofChrist Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1779245' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:23 PM']Wouldn't the aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense be to protect society? -Katie[/quote] No. It is punishment or retribution that redresses the disorder introduced by the offense.
Tinkerlina Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1779246' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:26 PM']No. It is punishment or retribution that redresses the disorder introduced by the offense.[/quote] I don't really understand that in light of the New Testament-wouldn't that be "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" which I thought was not necessary since Christ's incarnation. Doesn't it say something about "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord?" -Katie Edited February 12, 2009 by Tinkerlina
KnightofChrist Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1779254' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:33 PM']I don't really understand that in light of the New Testament-wouldn't that be "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" which I thought was not necessary since Christ's incarnation. Doesn't it say something about "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord?" -Katie[/quote] The new testament supports the use of Capital Punishment, as shown earlier in the thread, so this null and voids your objection. The New Testament also teaches that the punishment must be equal to the crime committed. The only punishment truly equal to the crime of murder is capital punishment.
Tinkerlina Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1779257' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:38 PM']The new testament supports the use of Capital Punishment, as shown earlier in the thread, so this null and voids your objection. The New Testament also teaches that the punishment must be equal to the crime committed. The only punishment truly equal to the crime of murder is capital punishment.[/quote] BUT is the New Testament really saying that the point of the death penalty is revenge, not protection of society? -Katie
KnightofChrist Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 St. Paul under guidance of the Holy Spirit wrote as much in Rom 13:4. [i]For he (the state) is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. [u]For he is God's minister[/u]: [b]an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.[/i][/b]
Tinkerlina Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1779267' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:44 PM']St. Paul under guidance of the Holy Spirit wrote as much in Rom 13:4. [i]For he (the state) is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. [u]For he is God's minister[/u]: [b]an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.[/i][/b][/quote] I don't see that this statement is at odds with the thinking that God allowed the death penalty in order to protect society from the dangers of violent criminals-perhaps vengeance can be understood in terms of something necessary and motivated by well being of the greater populace vs. how I usually think of vengeance as an emotional thing. Also, this statement doesn't really set limits for the death penalty so using this passage, couldn't we say that the death penalty may be used for a number of crimes? Where do you draw the line? -Katie
KnightofChrist Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1779274' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:49 PM']I don't see that this statement is at odds with the thinking that God allowed the death penalty in order to protect society from the dangers of violent criminals-perhaps vengeance can be understood in terms of something necessary and motivated by well being of the greater populace vs. how I usually think of vengeance as an emotional thing. Also, this statement doesn't really set limits for the death penalty so using this passage, couldn't we say that the death penalty may be used for a number of crimes? Where do you draw the line? -Katie[/quote] Because it is not at odds with it, protecting society is a secondary reason for the death penalty. The primary reason of punishment, as the CCC says, is redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. Capital Punishment is reserved for horrendous acts of violence, such as murder, and rape. But in some cases things like treason. I can't debate how you usually think, and I can't play 20 questions tonight. Scripture is clear, the state is an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Because the state is God's minister to us, for good.
Tinkerlina Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1779281' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:57 PM']Because it is not at odds with it, protecting society is a secondary reason for the death penalty. The primary reason of punishment, as the CCC says, is redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. Capital Punishment is reserved for horrendous acts of violence, such as murder, and rape. But in some cases things like treason. I can't debate how you usually think, and I can't play 20 questions tonight. Scripture is clear, the state is an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. Because the state is God's minister to us, for good.[/quote] Whatever, I'm against it so I guess that's all I need to know. -Katie
KnightofChrist Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1779288' date='Feb 11 2009, 11:02 PM']Whatever, I'm against it so I guess that's all I need to know. -Katie[/quote] And you can be, personally.
Tinkerlina Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1779293' date='Feb 11 2009, 11:06 PM']And you can be, personally. [/quote] Sweet. I wasn't trying to play 20 questions or anything, I was just confused by what you were saying, but I'm confused about everything so no worries. -Katie
KnightofChrist Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1779295' date='Feb 11 2009, 11:07 PM']Sweet. I wasn't trying to play 20 questions or anything, I was just confused by what you were saying, but I'm confused about everything so no worries. -Katie[/quote] I know I'm sorry, I'm stressed again tonight.
cmotherofpirl Posted February 12, 2009 Posted February 12, 2009 [quote name='qfnol31' post='1778501' date='Feb 11 2009, 12:34 AM']If I were 13 and looking at a life sentence, I might almost prefer death. If I were the state looking to impose a maximum penalty, I'd go for life imprisonment. Wow, 13 years old would be an awful time to go to jail forever.[/quote] I don't think any teenager should be sentenced to death.
qfnol31 Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1779302' date='Feb 11 2009, 10:15 PM']I don't think any teenager should be sentenced to death.[/quote] My post was deleted and I didn't see your response, but I agree with you. I was just talking about how scary it would be to live in jail for that many years...I wasn't commenting on the state's rights, just on the perspective I think I would have as a 13-year-old. Edited February 14, 2009 by qfnol31
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