How Young Is Too Young For The Death Penalty?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772368' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:50 PM']I disagree. I still think it fruitful to demonstrate that they continue to committed murder and violent crime in prison if those are the charges being laid as the basis for the necessity of their capital punishment.[/quote]

Fruitful it [b]maybe[/b], but the murderer has already proven they do not value life, or they would not have commit murder, and thus should wisely be consider a danger to others. Murder is the most wicked sin one can commit. The blood of the victim cries up to God for justice, which is why He has by natural law set up governments to protect society and enforce justice on the wicked.


[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772368' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:50 PM']And by what criteria precisely do you judge that they are no longer violate murderers and have repented?[/quote]

I do not. Also, a person's repentance of a crime does not, at all, mean they still do not have to answer for that crime nor does it mean the state should not enforce justice for the crime committed. Meaning that the murderer could or could not repent and the state could still justly execute the criminal for the crime of murder, and it would still be good in the eyes of God.

Edited February 5, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1772350' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:36 PM']I guess that's why the execution I witnessed went so wrong, because someone unqualified started the meds. He didn't get paralyzed, and his death scene was so horrific that two people passed out. One was a male witness who fell across knocking into other people in the witness box. He did eventually die, and I guess that was the important thing.[/quote]

That is so horrible. That must have really affected you. I'm truly sorry you had to see this execution. -Katie

[Veridicus]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772348' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:35 PM']You must remember that the Church teaches and has always taught that Justice must be proportionate to the crime. That being said I can not play 20 questions. This has to be the thousandth time this debate has come up on phatmass. There is very hard evidence that the Universal Magisterium of the Church does in fact recognize the states right to Capital Punishment. I have offend just some of that evidence, all that has be provide in response are questions. In all of these debates the anti-death plenty side has never shown nothing, but there own mere opinion or the opinion of someone else on the matter. While they can find statements from Church officials from the last 50 years, which even those officials do not really deny the states right, or that it can be used. The anti-death plenty side has in all those debate greatly failed to provide hard evidence that the [b]Universal Magisterium[/b] is against the use of capital punishment. The reason for that such evidence does not exist.[/quote]

I am not, nor was it ever my intent, to argue whether states have the 'right.' If I went down those lines in a post, I apologize because I do believe they have the 'right.' In fact, I have conceded this in several posts. My point of contention is the [i]necessity [/i]of exercising this right in the modern era. It is as simple as that.

Most of the arguments for why capital punishment is necessary in technologically advanced, materially-blessed states (such as the US) lay upon the 'threat' these individuals pose to prison inmates, guards, and society at large. I have asked that the burden of proof be demonstrated that those CONVICTED of MURDER (and I am glad everyone has learned to use caps as well) commit a disproportionate number of the rape/murder/violence within the prison system in order to substantiate this underlying basis for support in the continued exercise of the God-given right of the state to execute those having committed acts of sufficientg heiniousness.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772404' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:15 PM']I am not, nor was it ever my intent, to argue whether states have the 'right.' If I went down those lines in a post, I apologize because I do believe they have the 'right.' In fact, I have conceded this in several posts. My point of contention is the [i]necessity [/i]of exercising this right in the modern era. It is as simple as that.

Most of the arguments for why capital punishment is necessary in technologically advanced, materially-blessed states (such as the US) lay upon the 'threat' these individuals pose to prison inmates, guards, and society at large. I have asked that the burden of proof be demonstrated that those CONVICTED of MURDER (and I am glad everyone has learned to use caps as well) commit a disproportionate number of the rape/murder/violence within the prison system in order to substantiate this underlying basis for support in the continued exercise of the God-given right of the state to execute those having committed acts of sufficientg heiniousness.[/quote]

Again if someone else wants to bother with answering they can. It is not needed. A murderer has already proven they are a danger to others by there unholy act of murder. Also, the main reason for the use of capital punishment is that justice must fit the crime. A person that commits murder has dispossessed himself of the right to live and deserves death. The just use of capital punishment is a [u]universal[/u] right given by God to the state. This means all states, for all time, even in the modern era, even if we had the safest possible prisons ever. The state would still have the right and could and should still use it because it's use is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772420' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:28 PM']Again if someone else wants to bother with answering they can. It is not needed. A murderer has already proven they are a danger to others by there unholy act of murder. Also, the main reason for the use of capital punishment is that justice must fit the crime. A person that commits murder has dispossessed himself of the right to live and deserves death. The just use of capital punishment is a [u]universal[/u] right given by God to the state. This means all states, for all time, even in the modern era, even if we had the safest possible prisons ever. The state would still have the right [u]and could and should still use it[/u] because it's use is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment.[/quote]


It is only this statement for which I have an issue. We will have to agree to disagree I fear, but thank you for your rational and consistent responses.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Veridicus

[HisChildForever]

Again.

Please read and respond to post 132.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1772386' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:05 PM']That is so horrible. That must have really affected you. I'm truly sorry you had to see this execution. -Katie[/quote]

It obviously changed forever my view on capital punishment. I had helped with death penalty appeals, which was why I was there in the first place, but after that, I really understood why John Paul took the time to send letters to governors for every scheduled execution.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772420' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:28 PM']Again if someone else wants to bother with answering they can.[/quote]

I already have, I addressed it in post 132.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1772437' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:41 PM']It obviously changed forever my view on capital punishment. I had helped with death penalty appeals, which was why I was there in the first place, but after that, I really understood why John Paul took the time to send letters to governors for every scheduled execution.[/quote]

God bless you for doing that. I really respect JPII for speaking out against the death penalty. Have you ever seen the movie "Dancer in the Dark?" It's a Lars von Trier movie with Bjork in it about the death penalty, and is very, very disturbing. -Katie

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772428' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:34 PM']It is only this statement for which I have an issue. We will have to agree to disagree I fear, but thank you for your rational and consistent responses.[/quote]

You disagree that it is in fact a universal right of the civil authorities, or that it is paramount obedience to this Commandment? Because the Catechism of The Council of Trent makes it clear both are true.

[quote]Execution Of Criminals

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.[/quote]

[Socrates]

If the kid's old enough to twice rape an old lady at knife-point, the little bastard's old enough to fry.

End of story.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772349' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:36 PM']A lot of the inmates in prison gangs are in prison BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF MURDER (hey look, I can use caps too!) They were either (a) in a gang, committed a murder, and are now in prison - and in a prison gang or (b) committed a murder, are now in a prison, and have since joined a gang. My source touches the surface of prison gang violence and murder.[/quote]

So you are saying that a statistical majority of people on death row with murder convictions are members of one of these gangs? And that the majority of violent crime within prison is conducted by members of this gang that are on death row? I still do not think this line of evidence justifies the across-the-board statement that [i]convicted murderers [/i](how's italics?) commit more violent crime within prisons.

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772349' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:36 PM']This is not what you said initially. Initially you said [b]The 'civilized' way inevitably involves the use of a physician to be performed properly.[/b] This is incorrect. A doctor is present but the doctor is not administering the drug. The doctor is there (a) for emergency and (b) to state that the inmate is dead.[/quote]

The physician is responsible for making sure the procedure is performed correctly and in this sense must step in and direct in emergencies; it becomes an emergency when it is not performed correctly; I understand that he doesn't have to conduct or direct the procedure at the get-go. When the 'untrained technician' is getting ready to stick the condemned in the muscle rather than the vein, the physician has to step in and tell them what to stick...thereby violating his oath.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772447' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:47 PM']You disagree that it is in fact a universal right of the civil authorities, or that it is paramount obedience to this Commandment? Because the Catechism of The Council of Trent makes it clear both are true.

Execution Of Criminals

Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life. [u]Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence.[/u] Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.[/quote]

The punishments deemed necessary by the state for capital crimes tend toward death for the criminal "since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence." Again, we are discussing the capacity to incarcerate effectively the criminal, thus giving security to "the city of the Lord." Show me that allowing convicted murderers to live their lives out in prison decreases the security of life...show me that convicted murderers commit the majority of violent crime within the prison system.

[Veridicus]

This has been educational; but I'm done. I have to study. Thank you everyone.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772463' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:56 PM']So you are saying that a statistical majority of people on death row with murder convictions are members of one of these gangs? And that the majority of violent crime within prison is conducted by members of this gang that are on death row? I still do not think this line of evidence justifies the across-the-board statement that [i]convicted murderers [/i](how's italics?) commit more violent crime within prisons.[/quote]

I am saying that many members of prison gangs are convicted murderers. The violence they cause (violence including murder and rape) would be greatly reduced if they were executed.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1772442' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:44 PM']God bless you for doing that. I really respect JPII for speaking out against the death penalty. Have you ever seen the movie "Dancer in the Dark?" It's a Lars von Trier movie with Bjork in it about the death penalty, and is very, very disturbing. -Katie[/quote]

No, I haven't even heard about it. I'll have to look it up.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1772508' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:57 PM']No, I haven't even heard about it. I'll have to look it up.[/quote]

Lars is a very strange man and the movie isn't pleasant, but it is interesting. Bjork is in it, too-I love her as a singer and she really surprised me with her acting! -Katie

[Norseman82]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1771971' date='Feb 4 2009, 01:07 PM']I can not understand prioritizing people in order of innocence. Thankfully God does not do the same.[/quote]

1 Peter 2:13-14:

"Because of the Lord, be obedient to every human institution, whether it be the emperor as soveriegn or to the governors he commissions [b]for the punishment of criminals and the recognition of the upright[/b]" (bolded emphasis mine).

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1772464' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:01 PM']The punishments deemed necessary by the state for capital crimes tend toward death for the criminal "since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence." Again, we are discussing the capacity to incarcerate effectively the criminal, thus giving security to "the city of the Lord." Show me that allowing convicted murderers to live their lives out in prison decreases the security of life...show me that convicted murderers commit the majority of violent crime within the prison system.[/quote]

But what you still forget is that the justification for Capital Punishment to protect society is secondary, or it is not the only justification for the use of Capital Punishment. Capital Punishment is an necessity because it respects man as an image of God, it is a proportionate punishment for certain heinous crimes, it has a purgatorial effect on the soul and lastly it protects society and the common good. The first two reasons are why Capital Punishment would still be just even if 'we had the safest prisons' on earth. Man is the image of God, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God man was made." Our soul is so precious to God that it is worth the blood of the Son of God. When a person murders another they commit a heinous act against that persons soul, their own soul, as well as God. God demands justice for such a heinous act, which is why He has given the state the power of the sword, if that state has the safest prisons on earth or not.


As for your questions your own logic should tell you that someone that has committed murder can not be trusted to respect the lives of those around him. Would feel safe to be in the same room with murderers? Would you trust them to respect your life? I can not see anyway you could say yes to either.


[i]Thus when we cease to consider what the criminal deserves and consider only what will cure him or deter others, we have tacitly removed him from the sphere of justice altogether; instead of a person, a subject of rights, we now have a mere object, a patient, a 'case'.[/i] - C.S. Lewis

[url="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4441/is_200609/ai_n17194955"]56% OF VIOLENT FELONS ARE REPEAT OFFENDERS[/url]

Edited February 5, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[rkwright]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1772651' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:13 AM']But what you still forget is that the justification for Capital Punishment to protect society is secondary, or it is not the only justification for the use of Capital Punishment. Capital Punishment is an necessity because it respects man as an image of God, it is a proportionate punishment for certain heinous crimes, it has a purgatorial effect on the soul and lastly it protects society and the common good. The first two reasons are why Capital Punishment would still be just even if 'we had the safest prisons' on earth. Man is the image of God, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God man was made." Our soul is so precious to God that it is worth the blood of the Son of God. When a person murders another they commit a heinous act against that persons soul, their own soul, as well as God. God demands justice for such a heinous act, which is why He has given the state the power of the sword, if that state has the safest prisons on earth or not.[/quote]

Do you have any authority (or should I say new authority since we last talked) on this?

The quote from Trent isn't persuasive.