kenrockthefirst Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [url="http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/02/04/world/international-pope-jews-demand.html?_r=1&hp"]Vatican Demands Holocaust Denier Recant[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 What took them so long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 They are not accountable to you. The Church works in her own time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puellapaschalis Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1771839' date='Feb 4 2009, 04:52 PM']They are not accountable to you. The Church works in her own time. [/quote] Verbum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 great, so now the Holocaust is an artical of faith??? maybe we should make sure every bishop gives a statement on their positions on every historical event and whether or not any of their positions offend some people should determine whether or not they can be bishops. eh... this bothers me a lot. imagine if the Church suddenly asked you to change your unpopular historical belief about the Spanish Inquisition and admit the larger numbers of people who were supposedly killed rather than the smaller numbers you believe were killed based upon your reading of the historical account. what if +Williamson doesn't recant? Will he be re-excommunicated? ON WHAT GROUNDS? Remember folks, this is the Catholic Church, not the international historians club. You can be a member of the Church and believe there were no such thing as dinosaurs if you want. your historical beliefs are only regulated by the Church to say certain things about the historicity of the Old and New Testaments and the infallibility of the Church. okay, anyway, apart from my rant, I will say I would support Williamson being made to act [i]ut sacerdos[/i] in the re-integrated society if he does not recant based solely on the fact that he is incapable of ministering to the people of Europe without being potentially arrested... meaning that though he has the valid sacramental episcopal orders, he would limit himself only to acting as a priest. see, here's the thing about +Williamson, he's too personally intellectually honest to ever recant something that he really believes like this simply on the basis that his beliefs offend people; he would have to be convinced by an historical argument not by a bullying move that says "change your historical opinion or else" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771832' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:43 AM']What took them so long?[/quote] They're too old to jump to conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 hmm... now you know Bishop Williamson has been banned by his superior (Bishop Fellay) from making any public statements about political or historical matters. He would have to get permission before answering the Vatican's request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I once reviewed some of the logic and explanations by some of the holocaust 'deniers' and found some of their argumetns to be compelling. It is clear to me that the holocaust did indeed happen, however, several exagerations have come from this historical fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Who said the Holocaust is an article of faith? It's a historical event--pretty foolish to deny it. What if he says that the Church was founded by Christ? He's lost credibility. The Vatican is right to demand a recant. The Church shouldn't get to be discredited for an absurd and erroneous "personally intellectually honest" opinion of a bishop. [quote name='Aloysius' post='1771877' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:06 PM']great, so now the Holocaust is an artical of faith??? maybe we should make sure every bishop gives a statement on their positions on every historical event and whether or not any of their positions offend some people should determine whether or not they can be bishops. eh... this bothers me a lot. imagine if the Church suddenly asked you to change your unpopular historical belief about the Spanish Inquisition and admit the larger numbers of people who were supposedly killed rather than the smaller numbers you believe were killed based upon your reading of the historical account. what if +Williamson doesn't recant? Will he be re-excommunicated? ON WHAT GROUNDS? Remember folks, this is the Catholic Church, not the international historians club. You can be a member of the Church and believe there were no such thing as dinosaurs if you want. your historical beliefs are only regulated by the Church to say certain things about the historicity of the Old and New Testaments and the infallibility of the Church. okay, anyway, apart from my rant, I will say I would support Williamson being made to act [i]ut sacerdos[/i] in the re-integrated society if he does not recant based solely on the fact that he is incapable of ministering to the people of Europe without being potentially arrested... meaning that though he has the valid sacramental episcopal orders, he would limit himself only to acting as a priest. see, here's the thing about +Williamson, he's too personally intellectually honest to ever recant something that he really believes like this simply on the basis that his beliefs offend people; he would have to be convinced by an historical argument not by a bullying move that says "change your historical opinion or else"[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 and you know what, honestly, there are a lot of things compelling about a lot of arguments against accepted historical facts and if anyone has ever really looked at the arguments and given them a chance, one could see the vortex which could smell of elderberries one in if one was willing to believe it. this is true about many holocaust minimilizing arguments and about many 9/11 conspiracy theories, just to name a couple things. now, I do not believe in minimilizing the holocaust nor do I believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories; but because I have looked at them and given them a bit of a chance (though, to be intellectually honest, I did indeed remain biased against the holocaust minimilizing throughout (I gave 9/11 conspiracies much more of a chance than I did holocaust theories) so it would've taken a lot to actually break down my bias)... and you know what I concluded: "but for the grace of God go I"... the arguments can seem very compelling and you sometimes pretty much have to hold your hands over your head and shut your eyes and shout for a second and then go surround yourself with the accepted historical proofs or else you could very well get sucked up into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Seven77' post='1771898' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:36 PM']Who said the Holocaust is an article of faith? It's a historical event--pretty foolish to deny it. What if he says that the Church was founded by Christ? He's lost credibility. The Vatican is right to demand a recant. The Church shouldn't get to be discredited for an absurd and erroneous "personally intellectually honest" opinion of a bishop.[/quote] yes, the Church shouldn't be able to be discredited by such an opinion... it is the bullying of the Jewish groups that is using it to discredit the Church and the blame lies with them for their over-reaction. I just saw this artical linked on Fr. Z's site (wdtprs): [url="http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/irwin_kula/2009/02/jewish_reaction_to_pope_dispro.html"]http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith...ope_dispro.html[/url] THAT is a position I can respect and admire. The position of those who drummed up the hysteria I cannot respect in the slightest; it's bullying, it's mob-mentality, it's a nuremberg parade against someone's opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1771839' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:52 AM']They are not accountable to you. The Church works in her own time. [/quote] Its not accountablity thats the problem - its lack of foresight and planning, which is the same problem Mr Obama is having with his appointees. Surely there was someone in an office somewhere that could have said, "ok lets check and see if there are any problems that are gonna result from this". "Is there any controvery that we will have to address because of this?" Planning ahead is better than damage control. Knowing what your opposition and press are gonna say before they say it is half the battle. We are to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1771937' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:24 PM']Its not accountablity thats the problem - its lack of foresight and planning, which is the same problem Mr Obama is having with his appointees. Surely there was someone in an office somewhere that could have said, "ok lets check and see if there are any problems that are gonna result from this". "Is there any controvery that we will have to address because of this?" Planning ahead is better than damage control. Knowing what your opposition and press are gonna say before they say it is half the battle. We are to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.[/quote] So people go to Hell for denying the Holocaust? Serpents set priorities, right? Nothing will destroy the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' post='1771940' date='Feb 4 2009, 01:33 PM']So people go to Hell for denying the Holocaust? Serpents set priorities, right? Nothing will destroy the Church.[/quote] I didn't say that, did I A little pre-planning goes a long way in making public announcements. Why is that so difficult to conceptualize? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1771839' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:52 AM']They are not accountable to you. The Church works in her own time. [/quote] I don't think anyone here is suggesting that the Church is accountable to any of us personally. However, I do think some of us might have [i]wondered[/i] why the Vatican didn't do this earlier and maybe avoid a lot of misconceptions about what was going on. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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