mortify Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Jewish groups are understandably offended, but what do they know about excommunications? You don't impose excommunications simply because someone holds on to a ridiculous view, nor is lifting an excommunication an endorsement of that view. The Vatican has too many hands in it's pockets telling it what to do, it needs to stand up for what it knows to be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Re: The whole "If Williamson recants his statements he is lying about what he believes"-what if someone disagrees with the Church on another issue? If he had gone on Swedish TV and said that abortion isn't as big of a deal because less babies than we think are killed each year, I think a lot of people here would feel differently. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1772365' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:48 PM']Re: The whole "If Williamson recants his statements he is lying about what he believes"-what if someone disagrees with the Church on another issue? If he had gone on Swedish TV and said that abortion isn't as big of a deal because less babies than we think are killed each year, I think a lot of people here would feel differently. -Katie[/quote] such a person must either convert to the truth of the Church, or in the process of converting humble themselves and simply not speak about the issue out of trust that their opinion must be wrong and the Church's must be right, or else leave the Church out of honesty. however, this is completely non-comparable to an historical event which is not connected to our faith or morals. +Williamson is bound by faith and morals to say "it would be atrocious and horribly immoral to round up 6 million Jews and send them to gas chambers to kill them".. he is not, however, bound to say that that's what Adolf Hitler did; at least he's not bound by faith or morals to do so. and actually, if he believed that less babies are killed each year than the statistics allow, he would not be doing anything immoral. one should point the statistics out to him and argue the point; but not as a point of faith or morals but a mere point of regular old fact. which is what should happen with any holocaust minimalizer, you should point to facts to prove them wrong not cry foul, woe is me, and ask that they be sent to jail! it would be a sin for one who believed abortion to be morally permissable to say "I do not believe abortion is morally permissable". it is always sinful to lie. please not, +Williamson is NOT disagreeing with the Church on any issue, because the Church has no scope to say anything on historical issues. the Church will never make a statement that Neil Armstrong went to the moon and she never will, so everyone who thinks it was a soundstage is safe to remain in the Church as long as they want. the level of atrocity in the historical record you disagree with does not matter. you could not think the Rwanda genocide occurred, and it wouldn't be a moral issue unless you said it should have occurred or that if it had occurred it would have been justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1771877' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:06 AM']great, so now the Holocaust is an article of faith???[/quote] I am concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1772371' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:54 PM']such a person must either convert to the truth of the Church, or in the process of converting humble themselves and simply not speak about the issue out of trust that their opinion must be wrong and the Church's must be right, or else leave the Church out of honesty. however, this is completely non-comparable to an historical event which is not connected to our faith or morals.[/quote] I get you, but I don't see that the Holocaust (or any genocide) is not in some way connected to faith and morals. I think a well formed conscience would be compelled to uphold the facts and not blatantly make a genocide out to be less than it was. I do realize that he could be honestly confused about this, but I think the Church is right in telling him to can it. [quote name='Aloysius' post='1772371' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:54 PM']and actually, if he believed that less babies are killed each year than the statistics allow, he would not be doing anything immoral. one should point the statistics out to him and argue the point; but not as a point of faith or morals but a mere point of regular old fact. which is what should happen with any holocaust minimalizer, you should point to facts to prove them wrong not cry foul, woe is me, and ask that they be sent to jail![/quote] Who said anything about sending him to jail? [quote name='Aloysius' post='1772371' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:54 PM']t would be a sin for one who believed abortion to be morally permissable to say "I do not believe abortion is morally permissable". it is always sinful to lie.[/quote] Even when representing the Church to millions of people in a public arena? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1772371' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:54 PM']please not, +Williamson is NOT disagreeing with the Church on any issue, because the Church has no scope to say anything on historical issues.[/quote] "With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts), the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the Apostolic Letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations." (The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, [i]Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio Fidei[/i], 29 June 1998) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Slappo' post='1772282' date='Feb 4 2009, 05:23 PM']As Al already said though, papal authority does not stretch as far as commanding someone to lie.[/quote] Nor does papal authority touch on matters of geometry or algebra, subjects about which the pope could be an utter idiot. Moreover, the pope does not have the competence to decree that the American perspective on the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor must be accepted by all Catholics. To give just a few examples. Catholics must not accept uncritically the view of the holocaust which focuses upon the six million Jews who were killed by Hitler's war machine, while ignoring the other 12 million people who died in the Nazi concentration camps. Edited February 5, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1772381' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:02 PM']"With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts), the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the Apostolic Letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations." (The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, [i]Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio Fidei[/i], 29 June 1998)[/quote] The holocaust, or any other Nazi activity for that matter, is not connected to the dogmas of the Catholic faith by either logical or historical necessity. The Magisterium has no authoritative role in the presentation of the history of World War II. Edited February 5, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Slappo' post='1772282' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:23 PM']Although the belief that williamson might have is untrue, to deny that he believes it would be a lie. If I truly believe the sky is brown, but I tell someone I believe it is blue... I become a liar.[/quote] That's one of the most absurd things I've ever read. Besides, CCC 2464 states that "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving", and since stating that the sky is blue is not a falsehood, the first condition for it being a lie is not present. Edited February 5, 2009 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1772378' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:01 PM']I get you, but I don't see that the Holocaust (or any genocide) is not in some way connected to faith and morals. I think a well formed conscience would be compelled to uphold the facts and not blatantly make a genocide out to be less than it was. I do realize that he could be honestly confused about this, but I think the Church is right in telling him to can it.[/quote] The Church condemns acts of genocide, but she cannot excommunicate a person for being wrong about an historical event. Nor can she require a person to "recant" a position taken on a historical event. Ultimately the Vatican is confusing theology, where the Magisterium has the power to require a man to recant a given theological proposition, with history, where the Magisterium has no special competence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1772381' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:02 PM']"With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts), the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the Apostolic Letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations." (The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, [i]Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio Fidei[/i], 29 June 1998)[/quote] yes, with those types of notable exceptions as those are matters of faith, they are connected to revelation by historical necessity. the holocaust is not a matter of faith and is not connected to revelation by historical necessity, nor can the Church ever make it such. who wants to send him to jail? the Germans (read: Nazi thought-crime police) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772390' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:08 PM']The Church condemns acts of genocide, but she cannot excommunicate a person for being wrong about an historical event. Nor can she require a person to "recant" a position taken on a historical event. Ultimately the Vatican is confusing theology, where the Magisterium has the power to require a man to recant a given theological proposition, with history, where the Magisterium has no special competence.[/quote] I don't know that they are forbidding him from believing his insidious nonsense (I mean, you can't force someone to change their mind if they believe it), but I think they are making him recant a[i] public statement[/i] that has became a major scandal. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 This whole thing is motivated by political correctness. The next thing you know people will be saying that Pope Benedict XVI should resign because he was a member of the Hitler Youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1772391' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:08 PM']yes, with those types of notable exceptions as those are matters of faith, they are connected to revelation by historical necessity. the holocaust is not a matter of faith and is not connected to revelation by historical necessity, nor can the Church ever make it such. who wants to send him to jail? the Germans (read: Nazi thought-crime police)[/quote] Ok, he shouldn't go to jail and no one can force him to change his mind but if he is working toward coming into full communion with the Church, I do think the Church is within its rights to make him recant public statements that he's made on a public level, statements that have caused a major scandal. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772387' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:05 PM']The holocaust, or any other Nazi activity for that matter, is not connected to the dogmas of the Catholic faith by either logical or historical necessity. The Magisterium has no authoritative role in the presentation of the history of World War II.[/quote] The fact that Pius XII was Pope and that Maximilian Kolbe and that Teresa Benedicta of the Cross are Saints is connected to the deposit of faith by historical necessity, however. Edited February 5, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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