New Religious Communities - A Poll

[Nunsense]

I have personally discerned with a couple of new communities and had concerns about both of them. I was wondering what experience others have had and whether new communities are a valid discernment option for most people?

I don't want to start a debate here, and this topic could be moved if it needs to be. I just felt that this forum was appropriate because there are so many discerners here.

[puellapaschalis]

I think that personally I'd be hesitant to do so, and that if I were to, it would depend a lot on the circumstances. One of the things I "find" very important is a real and tangible history and heritage. If the new community were, say, a new [i]monastery[/i] in an [i]existing[/i] congregation then (divine vocation notwithstanding) I would be more "interested." But that's probably not the situation you were envisaging, nunsense?

As for whether there are too many: I don't think so. The Holy Spirit will prune as He sees fit; if some are "meant to be" - for however many years - then they'll be there for that time. If not, they won't. So long as everyone involved has good directors and their heads screwed on halfway straight, even the "false starts" - what a horrible term, I'm sorry! - can be ways to holiness, albeit brief.

[VeniteAdoremus]

I would not join with a new community - new foundations, as Puella indicated, are very different.

In my case it is because I don't have the "founder's call" - I need a strong rhythm, and a good novice mistress.

New communities should, I think, be treated with a helpful but discerning eye. New foundations of existing communities are very different, I think. Personally, I wouldn't join a place without a very experienced prioress and novice mistress at the very least.

[Mari Therese]

I'd be too scared to commit to a brand new religious order. God would really have to show me His will if he wanted me to br apart of a new community.

I would also want to be sure that they are getting religious formatiom from an experienced Novice Mistress.

[FiereMargriet]

If I really felt that God was calling me to that community, I would join. I think I would be scared (of overestimating my own influence, among other things), but I have been corresponding with a really wonderful new community and if God wants me there, I hope I'll be able to follow.

However, I definitely understand the concern over new communities.

[Nunsense]

I didn't put this in the poll but I wonder...
at what stage would the new community have to be before you would consider joining it?

For example, some new communities are private associations of the faithful (at least 2 members are required for this I believe) and others are public associations of the faithful (these must be recognised by their Bishop to become "public" but I don't remember how many members are needed).

Some are not even yet at the private association stage but are simply nonprofit organizations under civil law awaiting recognition as either a private or public association by their Bishop. These ones appear to me to be still in the "vision" stage of their founder/ress as they have no real entity in the Church.

Some communities have already been through private and public status and are waiting to become recognized as religious institutes of either Diocesan or Pontifical right, and this can take up to 30 years and require around a hundred members.

Of course, as some have mentioned, the establishment of a new community from an already existing one is a different thing, as they are already recognized by the Church "under the umbrella" of their founding community.

I bring all this up because I have noticed that many newer communities do not seem to state clearly what their official status is, and what type of vows their members take. Private Associations of the faithful do not take public vows, they take private ones, even if these are made in front of a Bishop. I think that discerners need to be made aware of some of things before they start seriously discerning with new communities, and that is why I am a little concerned at how many new communities are springing up. Yes, the Holy Spirit will sort out the wheat from the chaff, but it can still be confusing for those who are discerning.

I would recommend that those who are considering new communities be aware of this publication from CARA
[url="http://estores.merchantpartners.com/27256/product_info.php?cPath=2&products_id=46"] CR03 Emerging Communities of Consecrated Life... [/url]

It gives a list of new and emerging communities, when they were founded, what status they have now and what status they are seeking, how many members they have, male, female and both, whether they live in community (hermits don't) and other valuable information, including contact info. I think that there are many worthwhile new communities emerging, but it is also possible for almost anyone to make private vows to a priest or Bishop, to put on a habit, and to be considered a new community and to start soliciting new members. So I would just advise caution in discernment - that's all. Sometimes we need to ask the tough questions to find out what we need to know.

Thanks to everyone who participates in this poll. I was just curious about other people's opinions.

Edited February 8, 2009 by nunsense

[VeniteAdoremus]

Yes, the diocesan and pontifical stages take very very long... The SSVM have almost 800 members now (in the female branch) and they're not pontifical yet!

As FiereMargriet indicated, it's different when it's your call If it were my call... I would probably follow (being realistic here, hence the "probably").

But if it were my own call, I wouldn't join any place before at the very least public association of the faithful, and this is still pending the experience of the other members.

And my own community isn't very old yet either! I don't know the exact year when they split off, but I believe it's a bit less than 20 years ago.

[tnavarro61]

if God's calls you to join a new community, then why not? We must remember that older religious communities also had their beginnings, and for this reason we must not look at the new communties with contempt.

but we are to be very careful with religious orders that are just imaginations. if you know what i mean...

[TotusTuusMaria]

I would join if I really believed God was calling me there.

I probably wouldn't even consider it though or even think God might be calling me there until it appeared more stable. I remain open though...

If you are called there, you are called there.

Thank you for sharing the CARA document, nunsense. I think it is important for these things to be known as well.

[MithLuin]

Yes, I think the concern with new communities is that they are maybe not very well...defined? yet. So that it would be difficult to know what, precisely, you are joining/becoming a part of.

To me, it makes more sense if the founders have some experience with religious life, so a 'new' vocation might not be a good fit for a brand new group - how can you help form the group if you are not yet formed yourself?

But that is the type of question that would be addressed in different ways by different 'new communities' so it really does depend upon the particular circumstances.

As far as practical concerns - you wouldn't join a group where all the members are 30 years older than you (or more) because there would be this sense that the community is going to die out and leave you stranded. Likewise, very young groups lack that sense of stability - are they going to 'make it'? Are they still going to exist in 10 or 20 years?

[InHisLove726]

I answered no on the "have you discerned with a new community" question. I actually have. It was the Sister Servants of the Eternal Word in Hanceville, AL. I think they are different though from most starting communities, like Daughters of Mary, Mother of Israel's Hope, because the Sister Servants were branched from the Nashville Dominicans. I thought they were really beautiful. But Dominican and Franciscan spirituality is not what God is calling me to. I am called to Carmel.

There is another order that I was discerning with for a short period, which is more than 5 years old, but they are fairly unknown. They are the Sisters of the Most Holy Soul of Christ in Stuart, FL. They are in my diocese, so I emailed them, but I discovered they do a lot of missionary work, and that is not what Jesus is calling me to.

That's when I discovered the Carmelite Sisters of the Divine Heart of Jesus which was formed over 100 years ago. They are very rooted in the Carmelite spirituality, but they are not Discalced Carmelites or Ancient Carmelites. They are branched from the OCDs, but they are DCJs. I am going to visit them in 12 days! I can't wait to see their Milwaukee house, because I have already seen the St. Louis house.

If God was calling me to a new order, I think it would take a lot of convincing on His part that they were solid. Daughters of Mary, Mother of Israel's Hope, I believe, will be a very strong order once Rosalind Moss has ecclesial approbation, if it is God's will.

Edited February 8, 2009 by InHisLove726

[puellapaschalis]

The poll results are pretty interesting so far. Would anyone like to say some more about the view that there are indeed too many new communities around?

[dominicansoul]

i discerned with a very young community. their externals are beautiful: Mass done the correct way with great reverence and an atmosphere of profound silence in the chapel; beautiful music (i was the organist for their Masses for a time...) and the music was strictly traditional...beautiful and powerful Hours of Adoration; a sense of going back to what the Church has lost...

...but as I became closer and closer to the members of the community, an ugly secret came out...

...they had a woman who was their closest friend (and probably major benefactor) kinda giving them direction from the sidelines. she claimed to see visions and i'm sure the community saw her as an authentic mystic. after an encounter with her, i was pretty sure she was not authentic, but rather nutso...

also, this community has embraced "poem of the man-God" and treats it almost as important as Scripture itself...

it was a heartbreaking experience, but i had no other choice but to make a full report and send it to the local Bishop...after that, they no longer wanted anything to do with me, and from what i've heard, they've lost all permission for working with youth; also, the young men who lived with them and discerned for a while all left to pursue other things....(it was a co-ed community, made up of priests, brothers, sisters and consecrated lay-women...)

i am now extremely wary of new foundations...

no matter how pretty they look outside, don't be fooled....be extremely cautious when discerning and find out EVERYTHING about them before you get hurt...

Edited February 8, 2009 by dominicansoul

[awyers]

It is amazing to me how God has worked in my life. I always swore I would never enter a new order and only discerned with the well known 'historical' orders such as the Dominicans and Carmelites. Yet after having been part of a community of Dominicans, new foundation yet connected to a much older foundation, I can see that just because an order is older or more established does not make it better or 'safer' then a new order.

I have recently been accepted into a brand new order, the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Church in Spokane, WA and I am thrilled with what is happening in their community. They are perhaps a bit unique in that they are coming from an established community and of the 10 sisters two were former mother superiors and one is the former novice mistress so they have much experiene. I think if I were to enter a totally new order where the founder was not a religious and had no previous experience I would be very cautious. I discerned with an order here in Canada where a woman was starting it and had no experience of religious life. That was a bit too challenging for me! I suppose with my past experiences discerning with new orders it all comes down to the founder. If they are coming from religious life and have experience it makes a world of difference. Those who have never been religious and start a new order make me a bit nervous and I would give it a few years to see how things develop.

The Spirit blows where He wills and how He wills and His ways are mysterious to us. We are living in an incredible time of the New Evangelization and young people everywhere are responding to our dear JPII's challenge. I have heard many a time the reference to JPII's army that is emerging in response to the graces of his pontificate. If the Spirit sees fit to stir up new orders and new charims as a source of renewal and revitalization then praise God! I find it interesting that many new orders that are being established are very orthodox in their beliefs and practices such as the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming.

In Jesus and Mary,
Allison

[Nunsense]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1775812' date='Feb 8 2009, 08:35 AM']The poll results are pretty interesting so far. Would anyone like to say some more about the view that there are indeed too many new communities around?[/quote]

I don't know if there are "too many new communities" around but I am concerned about the lack of real information that is provided by some of them. Twice I have felt called to help out with new communities because of their particular charism or ministry or foundress, but each time I found myself in situations that were very uncomfortable and/or unstable. I think that I should have researched each one more carefully but at the time I had no idea what questions I should be asking.

dominicansoul pointed out the dangers of a new community as well - sometimes one just doesn't know what the "hidden agendas" might be (if there are any). Both communities that I discerned with now only have the original foundress left. Women have come but since the original problems haven't been addressed, they have left as well. They haven't given up and they may still succeed, and of course I pray for them both.

Father Nelson, the National Director of the IRL met with me before I discerned with one of these new communities and he said he was very hesitant about doing such a thing because most new communities failed within the first five years. Of course, I disregarded his advice because I was so impressed with the foundress of one community and the ministry of the other, but everything he told me before I left, came to pass (silly me - why DON'T I take advice? )

That is not to say that new communities CAN'T succeed. It is like the statistics for older women entering religious life. The Father General of the OCD told me that statistics proved that older women would not persevere at it, and of course I had to believe that I would be one of those women who proved the statistics wrong (I mean, as long as the drop-out rate wasn't 100%, I had a chance, right?) So, with regard to new communities, perhaps most WILL fail, but that means that some (even many) will succeed! The examples given of the Carmelite Sisters of the Divine Heart of Jesus and some others shows that it IS possible. All I am saying, I guess, is that discerners do have to ask the tough questions of new communities, to get ALL the facts. I have spent some time in correspondence with other emerging communities, and now I really probe deeply into the status of their community as a legal and Church entity and the type of vows they take, etc. It doesn't hurt to know what you are letting yourself in for.

In the end, sometimes a visit is necessary, to see "behind the scenes" at the actual life being lived and the focus on formation and prayer and ministry etc. I have to admit that after having seen these two communities, I said to myself "Why don't you just start your own community - at least that way you will know where things stand?" But of course, being a founder/ress is a vocation in itself, a calling from God, and I just don't feel that call personally.

So, although I understand that the Spirit works through many charisms and talents, personally, I can't see myself discerning with another new community. At my age, I need the stability of one of the "big ones" and of course my heart is always going to be in Carmel. I am currently planning a visit back to England in May to discern with a Carmel there that follows the 1990s constitutions (the original 1581 constitution of St Teresa that was promulgated in 1990). I have tried two 1991 communities and neither one was what I expected or hoped for, so call me an optimist, but maybe "third time lucky" (like St Therese's sister, Leonie) - we will see - perseverence must count for something (according to St Paul!).

With the new communities - all I can do is caution young discerners to get good spiritual direction and to FOLLOW the advice - lol - don't be stubborn like me and think you know better (yes, yes, the sin of pride, I know )

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses to this poll - I was curious how others felt about these new communities, I felt I got a little burnt and I just wanted the young people to be especially careful. Thanks for your personal experience dominicansoul!

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Piobaire' post='1776140' date='Feb 8 2009, 04:28 PM']It is amazing to me how God has worked in my life. I always swore I would never enter a new order and only discerned with the well known 'historical' orders such as the Dominicans and Carmelites. Yet after having been part of a community of Dominicans, new foundation yet connected to a much older foundation, I can see that just because an order is older or more established does not make it better or 'safer' then a new order.

I have recently been accepted into a brand new order, the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Church in Spokane, WA and I am thrilled with what is happening in their community. They are perhaps a bit unique in that they are coming from an established community and of the 10 sisters two were former mother superiors and one is the former novice mistress so they have much experiene. I think if I were to enter a totally new order where the founder was not a religious and had no previous experience I would be very cautious. I discerned with an order here in Canada where a woman was starting it and had no experience of religious life. That was a bit too challenging for me! I suppose with my past experiences discerning with new orders it all comes down to the founder. If they are coming from religious life and have experience it makes a world of difference. Those who have never been religious and start a new order make me a bit nervous and I would give it a few years to see how things develop.

The Spirit blows where He wills and how He wills and His ways are mysterious to us. We are living in an incredible time of the New Evangelization and young people everywhere are responding to our dear JPII's challenge. I have heard many a time the reference to JPII's army that is emerging in response to the graces of his pontificate. If the Spirit sees fit to stir up new orders and new charims as a source of renewal and revitalization then praise God! I find it interesting that many new orders that are being established are very orthodox in their beliefs and practices such as the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming.

In Jesus and Mary,
Allison[/quote]

I will pray that your new community is all you hope and expect. The last community I discerned with was started by a woman who had been an active sister for 12 years, so I thought that this would eliminate the problem of no experience. In fact, she still had no real structure in place (and was still redesigning her habit) after a year of incorporation as a nonprofit. She seemed to have no idea of what steps she needed to take to become an association of the faithful, either private or public, and her ministry was run in a sloppy and almost negligent way. I was very disappointed at what I found, despite my high hopes.

If the founding members of your new community have a lot of experience as superiors and formators, then things should be better for you. I hope they also know how to take all the steps that are necessary to grow the community. I will be praying for you. Those communities that are divinely inspired will succeed, despite all obstacles, if their leaders stay faithful to the Church and to the Will of God. God bless you!

[VeniteAdoremus]

In answer to Puella: I will, if you lot promise not to kill me on this, [i]try[/i] to illustrate my hesitancy concerning some new communities.

I was speaking on the topic of vocations with an acquaintance of mine who is currently a transeunt deacon. He very neatly put my definition of a vocation to rights, by pointing out that a vocation can only be situated [i]in the context of the Church[/i]. We decided (and we're always right ) that your vocation is the way God planned for you
1. to gain Heaven, AND
2. to serve the Church, so that others might do the same.

All vocations are in context of the Church - enweaved in the fabric, so to speak, and new communities must be exactly the same, if not more strongly. Of course, it is possible to have a silly Bishop who tries to block the process for whatever reason (although with most successful communities, the shepherds seem to be [i]lining up[/i] to get a group of religious to their diocese). But in general, the foundation needs to be ingrained in the Church from the very beginning.

Not so rarely, a foundation seems to be made by a group of people who are disgruntled by the state of the Church, and wish to form their own little "colony" in which they can be safe from it. This is a [i]negative[/i] reason. dominicansoul's experience seems to illustrate another example.

At other times a foundation is made by people who are very concerned by the state of the Church and want to offer themselves up to God for the benefit of said Church and their souls (and to make, or so I hear, darn good coffee).

See the difference?

I am in no way saying that the "negative choice" people don't mean well, or that they're selfish, or anything like that. And they will probably have some form of ministry in mind in which they can serve. But the basic premise needs to be [i]the giving of self[/i]... and that often doesn't go together with a big set of "this is how I think it should be done".

There are, by the way, many other types of negative and positive choices. This was just one. The Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church are a prime example of the positive choice: they didn't leave their community because they hated it there, but because they wanted to be part of the Roman church again.

Disclaimer: this is my personal opinion, at one in the morning, on a Sunday after I went to a kiddy Mass (which was painful).

[Nunsense]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1776148' date='Feb 8 2009, 04:55 PM']In answer to Puella: I will, if you lot promise not to kill me on this, [i]try[/i] to illustrate my hesitancy concerning some new communities.

I was speaking on the topic of vocations with an acquaintance of mine who is currently a transeunt deacon. He very neatly put my definition of a vocation to rights, by pointing out that a vocation can only be situated [i]in the context of the Church[/i]. We decided (and we're always right ) that your vocation is the way God planned for you
1. to gain Heaven, AND
2. to serve the Church, so that others might do the same.

All vocations are in context of the Church - enweaved in the fabric, so to speak, and new communities must be exactly the same, if not more strongly. Of course, it is possible to have a silly Bishop who tries to block the process for whatever reason (although with most successful communities, the shepherds seem to be [i]lining up[/i] to get a group of religious to their diocese). But in general, the foundation needs to be ingrained in the Church from the very beginning.

Not so rarely, a foundation seems to be made by a group of people who are disgruntled by the state of the Church, and wish to form their own little "colony" in which they can be safe from it. This is a [i]negative[/i] reason. dominicansoul's experience seems to illustrate another example.

At other times a foundation is made by people who are very concerned by the state of the Church and want to offer themselves up to God for the benefit of said Church and their souls (and to make, or so I hear, darn good coffee).

See the difference?

I am in no way saying that the "negative choice" people don't mean well, or that they're selfish, or anything like that. And they will probably have some form of ministry in mind in which they can serve. But the basic premise needs to be [i]the giving of self[/i]... and that often doesn't go together with a big set of "this is how I think it should be done".

There are, by the way, many other types of negative and positive choices. This was just one. The Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Church are a prime example of the positive choice: they didn't leave their community because they hated it there, but because they wanted to be part of the Roman church again.

Disclaimer: this is my personal opinion, at one in the morning, on a Sunday after I went to a kiddy Mass (which was painful). [/quote]

Very well put. Now it raises another question for me. When is it a "calling within calling" (like Mother Teresa) to leave one's community and when is it just that one wants to do one's own thing?

I am purposely not naming names here because I don't want to be uncharitable, so please don't ask me for specifics. But the recent community I visited was started by a sister who had spent 12 years in an active community and she left for 3 years exclaustration because she thought she was called to contemplative life. She spent two weeks with the Carmelites but didn't enter there for various reasons. She then started some work with the poor in her parish, and after three years of exclaustration, finally decided to finalize her exit from her previous community and make her own status more official as a new foundress. She took private vows with her Bishop and now is looking for people to join her - but she doesn't seem to have any plan in mind or idea what to do next. Her work with the poor is minimal (but still very appreciated by those she does manage to help - dont' get me wrong) and her prayer life is also very disorganized (although better than a previous community I had been with).

So, her life is her life, but I wondered to myself why she couldn't stay in her original community and do some good work there - perhaps by helping them to move into more work with the poor (they were involved with other types of ministry which she didn't want to do any more).

So, when is it a real call to leave one community to start another - and when is it just feeling unsatisfied or unfulfilled or whatever you want to call it, and wanting to "do your own thing"? I know that I didn't see a lot of self-denial or self-sacrifice happening, in fact just the opposite - a lot of self-indulgence. But then I kick myself for being uncharitable and judging others.

Some input on when is it ok to make these calls in discernment - to use one's common sense and judgement without "judging"? I know that I just didn't feel comfortable with what was happening, and I really felt that she wasn't doing anything extra special that warranted leaving her community after 12 years! And yet Mother Teresa did it - and we can all see that this was a real call and she was a saint! Help me out here folks!

Edited February 9, 2009 by nunsense

[shortnun]

I don't think I have anything of substance to add to the conversation. I'm just really enjoying reading everyone's thoughts. Thanks.

[HollyDolly]

Thanks for the insights.Not much for me to add to the subject.