New Religious Communities - A Poll

[osapientia]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1775708' date='Feb 8 2009, 04:22 AM']Yes, the diocesan and pontifical stages take very very long... The SSVM have almost 800 members now (in the female branch) and they're not pontifical yet!

As FiereMargriet indicated, it's different when it's your call If it were my call... I would probably follow (being realistic here, hence the "probably").

But if it were my own call, I wouldn't join any place before at the very least public association of the faithful, and this is still pending the experience of the other members.

And my own community isn't very old yet either! I don't know the exact year when they split off, but I believe it's a bit less than 20 years ago.[/quote]

While it most often does take a very long time to gain Diocesan or Pontifical status, I do not THINK that the number of members in the community is the main issue....nor do I believe (I can reearch further) that there is a juridical number requirement. I personally know (very well)a community that is a Benedcitine community of Pontifical Right and at the time they were approved as such they had 26 members and had been established for under 10 years. While that timeframe is quite rare I don't think the number of members is all that rare...nor do I believe the number matters. It could be of course because this community was not establishing a "new charism" - they are straight OSB women with solemn vows, but they were not a "daugher house" either.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Piobaire' post='1776140' date='Feb 8 2009, 07:28 PM']It is amazing to me how God has worked in my life. I always swore I would never enter a new order and only discerned with the well known 'historical' orders such as the Dominicans and Carmelites. Yet after having been part of a community of Dominicans, new foundation yet connected to a much older foundation, I can see that just because an order is older or more established does not make it better or 'safer' then a new order.

I have recently been accepted into a brand new order, the Sisters of Mary Mother of the Church in Spokane, WA and I am thrilled with what is happening in their community. They are perhaps a bit unique in that they are coming from an established community and of the 10 sisters two were former mother superiors and one is the former novice mistress so they have much experiene. I think if I were to enter a totally new order where the founder was not a religious and had no previous experience I would be very cautious. I discerned with an order here in Canada where a woman was starting it and had no experience of religious life. That was a bit too challenging for me! I suppose with my past experiences discerning with new orders it all comes down to the founder. If they are coming from religious life and have experience it makes a world of difference. Those who have never been religious and start a new order make me a bit nervous and I would give it a few years to see how things develop.

The Spirit blows where He wills and how He wills and His ways are mysterious to us. We are living in an incredible time of the New Evangelization and young people everywhere are responding to our dear JPII's challenge. I have heard many a time the reference to JPII's army that is emerging in response to the graces of his pontificate. If the Spirit sees fit to stir up new orders and new charims as a source of renewal and revitalization then praise God! I find it interesting that many new orders that are being established are very orthodox in their beliefs and practices such as the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming.

In Jesus and Mary,
Allison[/quote]

Allison thank you so much for posting! I am so excited for you.

Will you be entering at the end of the summer?

[Nunsense]

[quote name='osapientia' post='1776779' date='Feb 9 2009, 09:38 AM']While it most often does take a very long time to gain Diocesan or Pontifical status, I do not THINK that the number of members in the community is the main issue....nor do I believe (I can reearch further) that there is a juridical number requirement. I personally know (very well)a community that is a Benedcitine community of Pontifical Right and at the time they were approved as such they had 26 members and had been established for under 10 years. While that timeframe is quite rare I don't think the number of members is all that rare...nor do I believe the number matters. It could be of course because this community was not establishing a "new charism" - they are straight OSB women with solemn vows, but they were not a "daugher house" either.[/quote]

Diocesan status depends upon the Bishop so I would think that this is easier to get quickly - if the Bishop approves of the community (or has even asked them to come there). Sometimes a new community can also be under the umbrella of another one, even if they aren't truly affiliated. This is done to help gain status in the beginning years. I would imagine that a straight OSB community would be under the patronage of the Benedictines, even if they were not a daughter house of any kind. Being affiliated with an order like the Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites etc, seems (to me) to lend more of an aura of stability to a new community - but then again - some really totally new communities have really flourished, so it is all God's Will, I know.

It does seem that some communities move much more quickly than others towards official status, and this might depend upon many factors such as vocations, ministry etc. Obviously the Holy Spirit guides and directs new communities, and some are meant to persevere and others to exist for only a short time - God does work in His own ways. We need to pray for all new communities, and then trust in God to use those He chooses, in the way He chooses.

[Orans]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1776926' date='Feb 9 2009, 03:37 PM']Diocesan status depends upon the Bishop so I would think that this is easier to get quickly - if the Bishop approves of the community (or has even asked them to come there).[/quote]
Diocesan status depends upond the Bishop, indeed, but only after approval from Rome of Constitutions and everything as required for a Diocesan Religious Institute. So it is not the authority of the bishop alone that makes the group a Religious Congregation. This is recognized by Rome as well.

[the lords sheep]

It would all depend. If I felt that God was truly calling me there, I'd go. I would ask many careful questions about their formation, however, and if they would be receiving any outside help from other communities. I think that they must have healthy formation or they will not be able to have a firm foundation as religious. I also that whoever is forming the new community will have a huge influence on the future of the community, so I would want to meet that person too, and maybe even get to know her/his community, as that community's view on religious life will probably shape the new community's view.

[Gemma]

The Six Pillars of Emerging Charisms are:

Rule
Constitutions
Horarium (timetable/schedule)
Novitiate
Stable source of habit parts
4 persevering members

A note on "private" and "Public" associations of the faithful:

Two people coming together and following a set of rules for ministering to God's people constitute a private association of Christ's faithful. A bishop cannot set this up, he can only acknowledge that it exists. The two or more people doing this with a view of becoming a religious community usually are identified as a "Private association of the faithful with an intent of becoming an institute of religious life." The last part of that phrase is what you're looking for if you're discerning a community, and are feeling drawn to either found one or to help found one.

As for Public associations of the faithful, even groups who have no intention of becoming a religious community can be recognized as a such, as long as they have statutes and a board of directors. Whenever a group which is wanting to become an institute of religious life is recognized as such, they usually get to wear the habit, and are permitted to make new foundations when the bishop gives them this recognition.

When it comes to Benedictine or Dominican or whatever--it depends on who's making the new foundation. If there are established sisters or brothers making a new community, they are considered an emerging charism, and usually have a greater chance at survival because they have the Six Pillars. Affiliation as a new congregation to the order is what they are striving for. This is what happened with the Ann Arbor Dominicans.

Emerging charisms who wish to be affiliated eventually with an order have a tougher row to hoe. Usually there are many years of discernment, then contact with the order they wish to affiliate to. The Order will tell them to let the Heavenly Founder guide them in the particular path he or she wants them to go. The charism will have to be lived, and new members properly trained and finally professed before the order will recognize them as a branch.

There are many, many inconsistencies with emerging charisms as far as what bishops do or don't do on their behalf. Cloister Outreach, with the help of our Dominican spiritual director who was part of the now-defunct Fellowship of Emerging Communities, hopes to help clear the clouds of episcopal inconsistency, and help emerging charisms get their act together. Everybody needs to pray for this inconsistency to be cleared up for the sake of the Church.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1789301' date='Feb 23 2009, 12:44 PM']The Six Pillars of Emerging Charisms are:

Rule
Constitutions
Horarium (timetable/schedule)
Novitiate
Stable source of habit parts
4 persevering members

A note on "private" and "Public" associations of the faithful:

Two people coming together and following a set of rules for ministering to God's people constitute a private association of Christ's faithful. A bishop cannot set this up, he can only acknowledge that it exists. The two or more people doing this with a view of becoming a religious community usually are identified as a "Private association of the faithful with an intent of becoming an institute of religious life." The last part of that phrase is what you're looking for if you're discerning a community, and are feeling drawn to either found one or to help found one.

As for Public associations of the faithful, even groups who have no intention of becoming a religious community can be recognized as a such, as long as they have statutes and a board of directors. Whenever a group which is wanting to become an institute of religious life is recognized as such, they usually get to wear the habit, and are permitted to make new foundations when the bishop gives them this recognition.

When it comes to Benedictine or Dominican or whatever--it depends on who's making the new foundation. If there are established sisters or brothers making a new community, they are considered an emerging charism, and usually have a greater chance at survival because they have the Six Pillars. Affiliation as a new congregation to the order is what they are striving for. This is what happened with the Ann Arbor Dominicans.

Emerging charisms who wish to be affiliated eventually with an order have a tougher row to hoe. Usually there are many years of discernment, then contact with the order they wish to affiliate to. The Order will tell them to let the Heavenly Founder guide them in the particular path he or she wants them to go. The charism will have to be lived, and new members properly trained and finally professed before the order will recognize them as a branch.

There are many, many inconsistencies with emerging charisms as far as what bishops do or don't do on their behalf. Cloister Outreach, with the help of our Dominican spiritual director who was part of the now-defunct Fellowship of Emerging Communities, hopes to help clear the clouds of episcopal inconsistency, and help emerging charisms get their act together. Everybody needs to pray for this inconsistency to be cleared up for the sake of the Church.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

Actually, it's SEVEN pillars and the seventh is remunerative work.

Sorry--been in caretaker mode since the first part of December.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1789301' date='Feb 23 2009, 09:44 AM']The Six Pillars of Emerging Charisms are:

Rule
Constitutions
Horarium (timetable/schedule)
Novitiate
Stable source of habit parts
4 persevering members

A note on "private" and "Public" associations of the faithful:

Two people coming together and following a set of rules for ministering to God's people constitute a private association of Christ's faithful. A bishop cannot set this up, he can only acknowledge that it exists. The two or more people doing this with a view of becoming a religious community usually are identified as a "Private association of the faithful with an intent of becoming an institute of religious life." The last part of that phrase is what you're looking for if you're discerning a community, and are feeling drawn to either found one or to help found one.

As for Public associations of the faithful, even groups who have no intention of becoming a religious community can be recognized as a such, as long as they have statutes and a board of directors. Whenever a group which is wanting to become an institute of religious life is recognized as such, they usually get to wear the habit, and are permitted to make new foundations when the bishop gives them this recognition.

When it comes to Benedictine or Dominican or whatever--it depends on who's making the new foundation. If there are established sisters or brothers making a new community, they are considered an emerging charism, and usually have a greater chance at survival because they have the Six Pillars. Affiliation as a new congregation to the order is what they are striving for. This is what happened with the Ann Arbor Dominicans.

Emerging charisms who wish to be affiliated eventually with an order have a tougher row to hoe. Usually there are many years of discernment, then contact with the order they wish to affiliate to. The Order will tell them to let the Heavenly Founder guide them in the particular path he or she wants them to go. The charism will have to be lived, and new members properly trained and finally professed before the order will recognize them as a branch.

There are many, many inconsistencies with emerging charisms as far as what bishops do or don't do on their behalf. Cloister Outreach, with the help of our Dominican spiritual director who was part of the now-defunct Fellowship of Emerging Communities, hopes to help clear the clouds of episcopal inconsistency, and help emerging charisms get their act together. Everybody needs to pray for this inconsistency to be cleared up for the sake of the Church.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

Thank you for that information Gemma. I found it very interesting, especially since the new communities I discerned with didn't fulfil your seven pillars or fit into your definitions of Private and Public Associations with regard to number of people, wearing of habit etc. I don't want to go into details, but it does seem to me that there are a lot of things happening with new communities that don't always follow the "rules" or guidelines. That is why it is very important that anyone considering a new community be very careful in their discernment.

Thanks again.

[Gemma]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1790423' date='Feb 24 2009, 03:16 PM']Thank you for that information Gemma. I found it very interesting, especially since the new communities I discerned with didn't fulfil your seven pillars or fit into your definitions of Private and Public Associations with regard to number of people, wearing of habit etc. I don't want to go into details, but it does seem to me that there are a lot of things happening with new communities that don't always follow the "rules" or guidelines. That is why it is very important that anyone considering a new community be very careful in their discernment.

Thanks again.[/quote]

Those are the seven requirements for a community to approach a bishop to ask him for recognition as an association of the faithful. That's from the hermit-canonist we're working with. Until we can present all of that in one cohesive package, we don't need to even talk to him about any kind of "encouragement" as it's called.

Those who participate in our Founders Forum or Founders and Friends yahoo groups get these seven pillars "drilled" into them. There have been others who have been in emerging charisms who have come to me and I have "debriefed" them. The same failings keep coming up.

Yes, discerners, please be careful, but please also keep in mind that emerging means just that--the charism evolves as time goes along, as does the habit. A founder may or may not be able to answer all of your questions right at that moment, simply because they don't have the answers. They should not be ostracized for that. Please give them the charity of prayer!!!

Blessings,
Gemma

[Gemma]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1790423' date='Feb 24 2009, 03:16 PM']Thank you for that information Gemma. I found it very interesting, especially since the new communities I discerned with didn't fulfil your seven pillars or fit into your definitions of Private and Public Associations with regard to number of people, wearing of habit etc. I don't want to go into details, but it does seem to me that there are a lot of things happening with new communities that don't always follow the "rules" or guidelines. That is why it is very important that anyone considering a new community be very careful in their discernment.

Thanks again.[/quote]

Pardon me, everyone, but I forgot that there is one stage at the very bottom, and those communities being spoken of are likely in that category--"DeFacto Association."

I have emailed a canonist requesting an explanation of the differences between private association of the faithful and the same with the tag "with the intention of becoming an institute of religious life."

Almost seems like "defacto" is a demotion of sorts, in light of the definition of a private association of the faithful.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Guest Frances]

While it is good to have experienced Srs involved in starting a new community, it is not always necessary. Every one of the religious communities had to start with lay people, seeking to serve God fully with their lives. We see many religious communites dying especially here in Ireland, swayed by weird ideas and new age influences as well as general apathy. We may well be living in a time where the Lord seeks 'new wine, new wineskins'. I have heard incredibly sad stories about even enclosed orders gone funny...reading weird books and getting involved in strange 'courses'.

But as we can also see many orders both enclosed and apostolic are being renewed and we see this especially in America. The Franciscan Srs and Friars of the Renewal are only one example.

What anyone seeking to start a new religious foundation or association of the faithful (as it starts out as) needs, is a good spiritual director who is rock solid and behind the Church's teaching. A no nonsense approach and complete obedience to the Church is absolute. Also trust in Gods providence and a strong faith in the power of God and what He can do with the most weak vessels.

It is something a friend of mine and I are continually praying about and we seek the guidance of our spiritual director in these matters and also have to be patient. In Gods time, not ours.

[Gemma]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1794981' date='Mar 2 2009, 08:37 AM'] Pardon me, everyone, but I forgot that there is one stage at the very bottom, and those communities being spoken of are likely in that category--"DeFacto Association."

I have emailed a canonist requesting an explanation of the differences between private association of the faithful and the same with the tag "with the intention of becoming an institute of religious life."

Almost seems like "defacto" is a demotion of sorts, in light of the definition of a private association of the faithful.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

I have since learned that "defacto" means "practice." So, a "defacto private association of the faithful with the intention of becoming an institute of religious life" is a group practicing religious life with the intention of becoming an institute.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Digitaldame]

As someone who has been involved in the process of forming a new community (contemplative Benedictines) I'd add that working closely with the Congregation for Institites of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life (CICLSAL) is essential. All religious communities have either Constitutions (monasteries) or Statutes (apostolic communities) which give a good idea of how sane or otherwise the set-up is.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Frances' post='1800361' date='Mar 8 2009, 04:37 AM']While it is good to have experienced Srs involved in starting a new community, it is not always necessary. Every one of the religious communities had to start with lay people, seeking to serve God fully with their lives. We see many religious communites dying especially here in Ireland, swayed by weird ideas and new age influences as well as general apathy. We may well be living in a time where the Lord seeks 'new wine, new wineskins'. I have heard incredibly sad stories about even enclosed orders gone funny...reading weird books and getting involved in strange 'courses'.

But as we can also see many orders both enclosed and apostolic are being renewed and we see this especially in America. The Franciscan Srs and Friars of the Renewal are only one example.

What anyone seeking to start a new religious foundation or association of the faithful (as it starts out as) needs, is a good spiritual director who is rock solid and behind the Church's teaching. A no nonsense approach and complete obedience to the Church is absolute. Also trust in Gods providence and a strong faith in the power of God and what He can do with the most weak vessels.

It is something a friend of mine and I are continually praying about and we seek the guidance of our spiritual director in these matters and also have to be patient. In Gods time, not ours.

[/quote]

Your choice of the Franciscans of the Renewal is an good example of already experienced religious choosing to start new communities. Mother Teresa and Mother Angelica are other good examples of religious who left to do this. They have all been very successful too.

Although lay people with no experience "can" start new communities (witness Sr Rosalind), it definitely is much harder for them in the beginning because of their lack of experience. There has been a tradition in the past, which I support, of non-religious founders/resses spending their canonical Novitate year with another community (or at least under their direction), in order to learn how to live the evangelical counsels in community. It is kind of like a "jump-start" to help the community

In all cases, you are right of course - God's providence is required but, as Father Nelson (National Director of the IRL) told me in person -- most new communities only survive for five years or less. And hundreds of them start!!

Yes, established communities can and do go "funny" sometimes, but that is often why some of the religious in those communities will feel a calling to leave and form/reform a community.

Gemma has provided some very valuable information and resources for those wishing to start new communities, but not every new community is going to succeed - it is just that simple. That is why the Bishops don't usually jump with joy at people who approach them, wanting to do just that. They like to see how things proceed first. Sr Rosalind had a definite advantage in being so well-known in Catholic circles - this is one of her strengths. But her new Archbishop may even want to see more progress from her (in terms of numbers) before giving his approval - so this is a good time for her to take things slowly and make sure that the foundations are all in place, including her own religious formation. After all, there's no hurry.

[shortnun]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1800508' date='Mar 8 2009, 02:45 PM']Although lay people with no experience "can" start new communities (witness Sr Rosalind), it definitely is much harder for them in the beginning because of their lack of experience. There has been a tradition in the past, which I support, of non-religious founders/resses spending their canonical Novitate year with another community (or at least under their direction), in order to learn how to live the evangelical counsels in community. It is kind of like a "jump-start" to help the community[/quote]
Another example, correct me if I'm wrong nunsense, is the Sisters of Life.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1800644' date='Mar 8 2009, 04:00 PM']Another example, correct me if I'm wrong nunsense, is the Sisters of Life.[/quote]

I don't know their history - enlighten me please! Was their foundress from another community? I like their habits, and their ministry!

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1800673' date='Mar 8 2009, 05:38 PM']I don't know their history - enlighten me please! Was their foundress from another community? I like their habits, and their ministry![/quote]

The Sisters of Life were founded in 1991 by John Cardinal O'Connor after he visited a concentration camp in Dachau, Poland. To read their amazing history, go here:

[url="http://www.sistersoflife.org/history.html"]http://www.sistersoflife.org/history.html[/url]

Their first and current Mother Superior is Mother Agnes Mary Donovan, SV. Their initials, "SV", are for "Sorores Vitae" or, translated, Sisters of Life.

I met a few of them at a retreat and, earlier on, I discerned with them (though I never visited them in person). Their Vocation Director, Sr. Mary Gabriel, SV, is the Sister who grabbed my attention to discern through her active example. But, I received a phone call from one of her assistants and we discerned that it was not my vocation, but the assistant (Sr. Mary Kateri) really helped me and she suggested I look elsewhere.

Edited March 8, 2009 by InHisLove726

[Nunsense]

[quote name='InHisLove726' post='1800690' date='Mar 8 2009, 05:00 PM']The Sisters of Life were founded in 1991 by John Cardinal O'Connor after he visited a concentration camp in Dachau, Poland. To read their amazing history, go here:

[url="http://www.sistersoflife.org/history.html"]http://www.sistersoflife.org/history.html[/url]

Their first and current Mother Superior is Mother Agnes Mary Donovan, SV. Their initials, "SV", are for "Sorores Vitae" or, translated, Sisters of Life.

I met a few of them at a retreat and, earlier on, I discerned with them (though I never visited them in person). Their Vocation Director, Sr. Mary Gabriel, SV, is the Sister who grabbed my attention to discern through her active example. But, I received a phone call from one of her assistants and we discerned that it was not my vocation, but the assistant (Sr. Mary Kateri) really helped me and she suggested I look elsewhere. [/quote]


Thank you. This impressed me as very sensible...

[i]"The Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia and the Religious Sisters of Mercy of Alma provided our first novice director, Sr. (now Mother) Assumpta Long, O.P., and assistant novice director, Sr. Yvonne Mary Loucks, RSM. They remained with us for one year before Mother Agnes Mary was missioned as Superior General on August 22, 1993. "[/i]

They started with the help of established and experienced sisters! This is almost a vital necessity in my opinion, especially if the founder/ress has no experience in religious life. And their success is a testimony to their formation. Well done.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1800702' date='Mar 8 2009, 07:15 PM']Thank you. This impressed me as very sensible...

[i]"The Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia and the Religious Sisters of Mercy of Alma provided our first novice director, Sr. (now Mother) Assumpta Long, O.P., and assistant novice director, Sr. Yvonne Mary Loucks, RSM. They remained with us for one year before Mother Agnes Mary was missioned as Superior General on August 22, 1993. "[/i]

They started with the help of established and experienced sisters! This is almost a vital necessity in my opinion, especially if the founder/ress has no experience in religious life. And their success is a testimony to their formation. Well done.[/quote]

Huh! I forgot about that! Yes, they are a VERY strong order now and are receiving A LOT of vocations! Like I said, I've met some of them (as well as the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal) and, like the CFRs, they are ON FIRE for God!

[shortnun]

[quote name='shortnun' post='1800644' date='Mar 8 2009, 05:00 PM']Another example, correct me if I'm wrong nunsense, is the Sisters of Life.[/quote]
Sorry, I think I had you confused with someone else who had been in formation with them for a while.

[quote name='nunsense' post='1800702' date='Mar 8 2009, 06:15 PM']Thank you. This impressed me as very sensible...

[i]"The Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia and the Religious Sisters of Mercy of Alma provided our first novice director, Sr. (now Mother) Assumpta Long, O.P., and assistant novice director, Sr. Yvonne Mary Loucks, RSM. They remained with us for one year before Mother Agnes Mary was missioned as Superior General on August 22, 1993. "[/i]

They started with the help of established and experienced sisters! This is almost a vital necessity in my opinion, especially if the founder/ress has no experience in religious life. And their success is a testimony to their formation. Well done.[/quote]
Exactly--a group of lay women who had the aid of experienced sisters to help with formation etc.