Lil Red Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 +J.M.J.+ [url="http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/02/16/owner-muslim-relations-tv-network-beheads-wife-media-mum"]From Newsbusters:[/url] Ironically, the network's motto was "Connecting People Through Understanding," and its mission statement: [quote]Bridges TV aims to foster a greater understanding among many cultures and diverse populations.Through our high-quality, informative, 24x7 programming in English; we seek to become a unifying force that can help people understand our diverse world through education and entertainment.[/quote]
Tinkerlina Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 [quote name='Lil Red' post='1782444' date='Feb 16 2009, 01:56 PM']+J.M.J.+ [url="http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/02/16/owner-muslim-relations-tv-network-beheads-wife-media-mum"]From Newsbusters:[/url] Ironically, the network's motto was "Connecting People Through Understanding," and its mission statement:[/quote] Yeah that happened like 10 minutes away from me. So sad. -Katie
CatherineM Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 I think I'm going to find the courage to bring up this case in May at our Catholic women's league symposium. It's going to be between the CWL and the local Jewish and Muslim women's councils. We're going to be discussing the book, "the faith club." I didn't know what I was going to talk about. This was a moderate Muslim, trying to show Islam in a positive light, they seemed to have had a non-stereotypical Muslim marriage in the beginning, and then when they start having trouble, he reverts back to some kind of primal anger thing. To my mind, this kind of thing does more damage to their image than a suicide bomber. A bomber you can always chalk up to a nut or extremist, but when a seemingly normal, western individual does it, it really should make people question what they are being told. Actions speak louder than words. This is like those doctors in England who tried to bomb the airport.
Tinkerlina Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1782461' date='Feb 16 2009, 02:20 PM']I think I'm going to find the courage to bring up this case in May at our Catholic women's league symposium. It's going to be between the CWL and the local Jewish and Muslim women's councils. We're going to be discussing the book, "the faith club." I didn't know what I was going to talk about. This was a moderate Muslim, trying to show Islam in a positive light, they seemed to have had a non-stereotypical Muslim marriage in the beginning, and then when they start having trouble, he reverts back to some kind of primal anger thing. To my mind, this kind of thing does more damage to their image than a suicide bomber. A bomber you can always chalk up to a nut or extremist, but when a seemingly normal, western individual does it, it really should make people question what they are being told. Actions speak louder than words. This is like those doctors in England who tried to bomb the airport.[/quote] I think you should bring it up. It [i]is[/i] really strange that it came from a very "normal" guy. I've seen the network, it was very modern, even had female newcasters and such. And I mean, this was a really brutal act-any murder is of course horrible but this was exceedingly violent and gory. -Katie
Hassan Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1782461' date='Feb 16 2009, 02:20 PM']A bomber you can always chalk up to a nut or extremist, but when a seemingly normal, western individual does it, it really should make people question what they are being told. Actions speak louder than words.[/quote] What does that mean?
Hassan Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1782482' date='Feb 16 2009, 02:46 PM']I think you should bring it up. It [i]is[/i] really strange that it came from a very "normal" guy. I've seen the network, it was very modern, even had female newcasters and such. And I mean, this was a really brutal act-any murder is of course horrible but this was exceedingly violent and gory. -Katie[/quote] I hate to point out the obvious but this man was obviously not a "normal" guy, other wise he would not have hacked his wife's head off. It would be kind of like if I was confused as to why a nice, normal Christian man like Ted Haggard would get caught with a gay prostitute and crystal meth. I think the obvious answer is that Mr. Haggard is not a nice, normal Christian man but an individual with serious psychological issues much like this chap.
Apotheoun Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 Although Islamic law allows a husband to beat his wife with a small stick, I do not think it allows him to decapitate her.
Tinkerlina Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1782750' date='Feb 16 2009, 07:10 PM']I hate to point out the obvious but this man was obviously not a "normal" guy, other wise he would not have hacked his wife's head off. It would be kind of like if I was confused as to why a nice, normal Christian man like Ted Haggard would get caught with a gay prostitute and crystal meth. I think the obvious answer is that Mr. Haggard is not a nice, normal Christian man but an individual with serious psychological issues much like this chap.[/quote] You're right, [i]seemingly [/i]normal was what I meant to say (that's why I put it in quotes). -Katie Edited February 16, 2009 by Tinkerlina
Justified Saint Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782751' date='Feb 16 2009, 05:11 PM']Although Islamic law allows a husband to beat his wife with a small stick, I do not think it allows him to decapitate her.[/quote] That is a rather tasteless comment. And I don't understand this thread, or perhaps its placing. What is there to debate?
Hassan Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1782840' date='Feb 16 2009, 07:57 PM']That is a rather tasteless comment.[/quote] No, it's true. I mean he cannot just beat her for no reason but if after trying to correct her, not coming to her bed, ignoring etc I forget the whole process, he is allowed to hit her with a small stick. It's in "The Cow" I think but I forget exactly where. Oppinions range from this being some sort of symbolic act to an actual beating. I have always found the arguments that it does not refer to corprol punishment weak but I'm don't really know. [quote]And I don't understand this thread, or perhaps its placing. What is there to debate?[/quote] I think that's a good question. This man did a horrid thing but I don't think that reports of domestic abuse or murder usually warrent a phatmass thread on the debate table.
TotusTuusMaria Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1782847' date='Feb 16 2009, 09:03 PM']No, it's true. I mean he cannot just beat her for no reason but if after trying to correct her, not coming to her bed, ignoring etc I forget the whole process, he is allowed to hit her with a small stick. It's in "The Cow" I think but I forget exactly where. Oppinions range from this being some sort of symbolic act to an actual beating. I have always found the arguments that it does not refer to corprol punishment weak but I'm don't really know.[/quote] [quote]I think that's a good question. This man did a horrid thing but I don't think that reports of domestic abuse or murder usually warrent a phatmass thread on the debate table.[/quote] Well, I think it could turn into a debate. possibly. That is probably why it was posted here. Any article on Muslims doing something extreme usually end up in debate. .... I don't understand why everyone has overlooked the man's name as being Mo [b]Hassan[/b]. And you try to claim its Russian or something.
Tinkerlina Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1782847' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:03 PM']No, it's true. I mean he cannot just beat her for no reason but if after trying to correct her, not coming to her bed, ignoring etc I forget the whole process, he is allowed to hit her with a small stick. It's in "The Cow" I think but I forget exactly where.[/quote] I didn't know that was truly permitted in Islam-I thought it was some crazies running with some verse in the Koran much like some crazy Christians do with the Bible. The fact that it is actually kind of a mainstream teaching is sickening. That said, I don't truly have any concept of how many practicing Muslims interpret the passage to mean it's OK to beat your wife or take it in some kind of symbolic thing like we do with some of the more difficult parts of the OT. Although, based on what I usually hear going on in the Islamic world (at least in the Middle East/southern Europe), it seems like most people do take it literally...nasty -Katie Edited February 17, 2009 by Tinkerlina
Justified Saint Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1782847' date='Feb 16 2009, 06:03 PM']No, it's true. I mean he cannot just beat her for no reason but if after trying to correct her, not coming to her bed, ignoring etc I forget the whole process, he is allowed to hit her with a small stick. It's in "The Cow" I think but I forget exactly where. Oppinions range from this being some sort of symbolic act to an actual beating. I have always found the arguments that it does not refer to corprol punishment weak but I'm don't really know.[/quote] I was not doubting the veracity of some such Islamic code allowing marital abuse. I can claim no expertise on Islam and thus I have no reason to question your account. Rather, I was pointing out what seemed like a tasteless ploy to make light of the situation in suggesting that the crime was somehow religiously motivated (however misplaced), or somehow loosely based on a Islamic moral code. In any event, I found the comment either motivated by a repugnant attempt at humor or otherwise a wilful ignorance.
Apotheoun Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1782878' date='Feb 16 2009, 05:18 PM']I was not doubting the veracity of some such Islamic code allowing marital abuse. I can claim no expertise on Islam and thus I have no reason to question your account. Rather, I was pointing out what seemed like a tasteless ploy to make light of the situation in suggesting that the crime was somehow religiously motivated (however misplaced), or somehow loosely based on a Islamic moral code. In any event, I found the comment either motivated by a repugnant attempt at humor or otherwise a wilful ignorance.[/quote] Murder, abortion, euthanasia, spouse abuse, etc., are all tasteless things, but that should not keep us from speaking the truth about those things.
CatherineM Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1782747' date='Feb 16 2009, 05:07 PM']What does that mean?[/quote] Whenever there is a serial killer exposed, I used to laugh that they'd interview the neighbors, and they would always say, "he was such a quiet guy," or "he was such a good neighbor." Guys that hold jobs, pay mortgages, run businesses, aren't supposed to go nuts and hack their wives heads off. We all accept that guys like Lee Harvey Oswald or Tim McVey are around. The Secret Service even accepts that if someone is willing to lose their life in the process, there is no sure way they can prevent the President from being assassinated. We can accept the idea that a suicide bomber might just be a nut. Someone who was misguided by a mentor, someone who got caught up in a religious frenzy, or someone who was disenfranchised. I can truthfully say that I don't worry about encountering a suicide bomber in my everyday life. If I was going on a tourist trip to Egypt or the Holy Land, I probably would. I don't worry about drug gangs here either, but would if I was going on a trip to Mexico. This was a man who told us that he was about peace and understanding. He told us that his religion wasn't about violence. Yet he committed this horrific act. When a guy on a bus outside Winnipeg chopped off another passenger's head off, everyone immediately assumed he had schizophrenia. When a Muslim man does the same, we immediately assume it was motivated by his religion. Guys kill their wives/girlfriends all the time, more than we know, but most of the time when it happens we don't think it was motivated by their religion. When you are in a position of authority, elected to an office, in a high profile job, or as in this case, someone who puts themselves out there as an example of the true way their religion should be viewed, then they are held to higher levels of expectations. The clergy abuse scandal wasn't just about how horrible any kind of abuse is, it went to a higher level because priests are expected to be better than the rest of us, unfair as that may seem, same with teachers or doctors who get caught doing stuff. This man voluntarily placed himself in a position as and example, and now by his actions, he has hurt the perceptions he said he was trying to change. It may not be fair, but it just is.
Tinkerlina Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1782878' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:18 PM']I was not doubting the veracity of some such Islamic code allowing marital abuse. I can claim no expertise on Islam and thus I have no reason to question your account. Rather, I was pointing out what seemed like a tasteless ploy to make light of the situation in suggesting that the crime was somehow religiously motivated (however misplaced), or somehow loosely based on a Islamic moral code.[/quote] Yeah, I think there was a lot more at work here than religious motivations. This guy went out of his way to make an effort to show a more moderate side of Islam to the community-like I said, his network, from what I watched, seemed quite modern (in context of way we usually view Islamic culture), women often newscasters, etc-it would seem to me that it would be out of character for him to purposefully use the tenants of Islam to justify himself-I mean, putting aside the obvious horror of this murder for a moment-it would have been bad press, inconsistent with his desires to show the world a "good" side of Islam. From what I know of this crime, it seems like a case of criminally insane rage. Could there have been religious motivation? Maybe, I can't say definitively. But, from what I know it wouldn't seem that it was the case. -Katie Edited February 17, 2009 by Tinkerlina
Hassan Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1782864' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:11 PM']I didn't know that was truly permitted in Islam-I thought it was some crazies running with some verse in the Koran much like some crazy Christians do with the Bible. The fact that it is actually kind of a mainstream teaching is sickening. That said, I don't truly have any concept of how many practicing Muslims interpret the passage to mean it's OK to beat your wife or take it in some kind of symbolic thing like we do with some of the more difficult parts of the OT. Although, based on what I usually hear going on in the Islamic world (at least in the Middle East/southern Europe), it seems like most people do take it literally...nasty -Katie[/quote] Some do take it to be a symbolic act. I agree that the fact that the Qur'an contains it is troubling, although the context suggusts it is intended to set limits on punishment not impose it. That is to say that if you have taken X steps then you will be permitted to hit your wife with a small stick or toothbrush withing these confines. Unfortunatly Islamic fiqh really has no way to fully discharge things that were intended to be curbed but permitted. I would not blame domestic abuse in Muslim countries, for the most part, on this (although it is certianly legitimate to question the morality of any such allowance). I would suspect, but cannot say for sure, that most instances of such abuse do not follow the legal process but exist independnt as a culturally accecpted way of running the house.
Tinkerlina Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1782888' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:26 PM']Some do take it to be a symbolic act. I agree that the fact that the Qur'an contains it is troubling, although the context suggusts it is intended to set limits on punishment not impose it. That is to say that if you have taken X steps then you will be permitted to hit your wife with a small stick or toothbrush withing these confines. Unfortunatly Islamic fiqh really has no way to fully discharge things that were intended to be curbed but permitted. I would not blame domestic abuse in Muslim countries, for the most part, on this (although it is certianly legitimate to question the morality of any such allowance). I would suspect, but cannot say for sure, that most instances of such abuse do not follow the legal process but exist independnt as a culturally accecpted way of running the house.[/quote] Probably true that most cases of domestic violence in the Islamic culture don't follow the Koran per se when it comes to punishment in terms of specific goals, steps having already been taken, etc but honestly, the fact that it's even there is an issue. -Katie
Hassan Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1782891' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:30 PM']Probably true that most cases of domestic violence in the Islamic culture don't follow the Koran per se when it comes to punishment in terms of specific goals, steps having already been taken, etc but honestly, the fact that it's even there is an issue. -Katie[/quote] I agree.
Tinkerlina Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1782885' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:24 PM']This was a man who told us that he was about peace and understanding. He told us that his religion wasn't about violence. Yet he committed this horrific act. When a guy on a bus outside Winnipeg chopped off another passenger's head off, everyone immediately assumed he had schizophrenia. When a Muslim man does the same, we immediately assume it was motivated by his religion. Guys kill their wives/girlfriends all the time, more than we know, but most of the time when it happens we don't think it was motivated by their religion. When you are in a position of authority, elected to an office, in a high profile job, or as in this case, someone who puts themselves out there as an example of the true way their religion should be viewed, then they are held to higher levels of expectations. The clergy abuse scandal wasn't just about how horrible any kind of abuse is, it went to a higher level because priests are expected to be better than the rest of us, unfair as that may seem, same with teachers or doctors who get caught doing stuff. This man voluntarily placed himself in a position as and example, and now by his actions, he has hurt the perceptions he said he was trying to change. It may not be fair, but it just is.[/quote] Too true-I'm wondering how the Muslim community here will respond to this. I do have a minimal tie to the Islamic community here-my cousin's boyfriend/father of her child is Muslim, though I don't really see him often. To be honest, their relationship has raised some concerns with me over how women are viewed/treated by his culture (including religion). Then again, I can't say how much of a factor religion is in his particular case, I know he doesnt' really practice very often.-Katie
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