Justified Saint Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782883' date='Feb 16 2009, 06:22 PM']Murder, abortion, euthanasia, spouse abuse, etc., are all tasteless things, but that should not keep us from speaking the truth about those things.[/quote] Speaking the truth despite your obvious attempts at obfuscation? Hmm...
Hassan Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1782895' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:34 PM']Too true-I'm wondering how the Muslim community here will respond to this. I do have a minimal tie to the Islamic community here-my cousin's boyfriend/father of her child is Muslim, though I don't really see him often. To be honest, their relationship has raised some concerns with me over how women are viewed/treated by his culture (including religion). Then again, I can't say how much of a factor religion is in his particular case, I know he doesnt' really practice very often.-Katie[/quote] If he had a child out of wedlock with a woman than he is probably not going to scan thousand page books by Islamic scholars on marriage regulations to resolve problems in his marriage. That does not mean he is or is not a good guy, but I would be more concerned looking to warning signs of abuse than sharia. If it is a concern I'm sure you could find some material on line. I don't know if that helps any.,
Tinkerlina Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1782899' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:38 PM']If he had a child out of wedlock with a woman than he is probably not going to scan thousand page books by Islamic scholars on marriage regulations to resolve problems in his marriage. That does not mean he is or is not a good guy, but I would be more concerned looking to warning signs of abuse than sharia. If it is a concern I'm sure you could find some material on line. I don't know if that helps any.,[/quote] Yes, I don't think he's any religious scholar (though he does abstain from pork and has made some attempts to convert her to Islam, though she says he's not pushy about it). I guess I'm thinking more in terms of culture (he's from Yemen, there is a farily decent sized Yemeni culture here) but I'm also wondering how much of culture is influenced directly by religion. I don't think their relationship seems abusive, but I don't think he really treats her with true respect...he sort of comes and goes as he pleases and he went away back to Yemen for 9 months when she was pregnant... but I don't want to judge an entire culture, even local, by one person's actions. -Katie
Hassan Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1782878' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:18 PM']I was not doubting the veracity of some such Islamic code allowing marital abuse. I can claim no expertise on Islam and thus I have no reason to question your account. Rather, I was pointing out what seemed like a tasteless ploy to make light of the situation in suggesting that the crime was somehow religiously motivated (however misplaced), or somehow loosely based on a Islamic moral code.[/quote] I didn't catch that but it could well be. I do wonder why this is considered a religiously motivated crime in any sense. Most arguments over "correction" in Islamic marriages that I know of are about tht verse and whether it is discussing a symbolic gesture with a tooth brush or something else. I have never heard anything that would suggust this is even almost near the ball park of what is, n the extreme, allowed. I mean the verse in Cow is, as far as I know, a guide to the most extreme form the actions can take. The simply fact that beheading was involved and this man is Muslim means little more in my eyes, than if a Catholic man lit someone on fire with respect to religious motivations. Jan Hus aside if I turned on the TV tomorrow to see that a Catholic man had set his wife ablaze my first thought would be this is obviously a disturbed man, not assume it was a religiously motivated crime.
Tinkerlina Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1782906' date='Feb 16 2009, 08:48 PM']I didn't catch that but it could well be. I do wonder why this is considered a religiously motivated crime in any sense. Most arguments over "correction" in Islamic marriages that I know of are about tht verse and whether it is discussing a symbolic gesture with a tooth brush or something else. I have never heard anything that would suggust this is even almost near the ball park of what is, n the extreme, allowed. I mean the verse in Cow is, as far as I know, a guide to the most extreme form the actions can take. The simply fact that beheading was involved and this man is Muslim means little more in my eyes, than if a Catholic man lit someone on fire with respect to religious motivations. Jan Hus aside if I turned on the TV tomorrow to see that a Catholic man had set his wife ablaze my first thought would be this is obviously a disturbed man, not assume it was a religiously motivated crime.[/quote] Well, you're right that we shouldn't assume it was religiously motivated (I personally doubt it) but to be fair he did put himself out there as a prominent person, he represented the Islamic community to many people so I don't think it's entirely illogical for someone to wonder if his crimes were in any way religiously motivated. Just like if a priest killed someone, I'd probably wonder if he was using religion to justify himself. -Katie
Apotheoun Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1782898' date='Feb 16 2009, 05:37 PM']Speaking the truth despite your obvious attempts at obfuscation? Hmm...[/quote] That you took offense at a statement of fact is your problem.
mortify Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) Re Apotheon and Islamic beating of women [color="#0000FF"][size=3]"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. [b]As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and [u]scourge[/u] them.[/b] Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. [/size][/color] [b]Quran: Sura 4 verse 34[/b] Some translators try to downplay the scourging by manipulating the verse. Note the added words (emphasized by black font) in Yusuf Ali's translation, *none* of which are part of the original text: [color="#0000FF"][b] "As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them [color="#000000"](first)[/color], [color="#000000"](Next)[/color], refuse to share their beds, [color="#000000"](And last)[/color] beat them [color="#000000"](lightly)[/color]...[/b][/color] And as for the stipulation to beat women with a [i]miswak[/i] (a branch used to brush teeth) I think that's nothing more than Islamic apologetics trying to downplay the verse as well. Edited February 17, 2009 by mortify
Tinkerlina Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='mortify' post='1782954' date='Feb 16 2009, 09:20 PM']And as for the stipulation to beat women with a [i]miswak[/i] (a branch used to brush teeth) I think that's nothing more than Islamic apologetics trying to downplay the verse as well.[/quote] It would be wrong anyway...-Katie
Hassan Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='mortify' post='1782954' date='Feb 16 2009, 09:20 PM']Re Apotheon and Islamic beating of women [color="#0000FF"][size=3]"Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. [b]As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and [u]scourge[/u] them.[/b] Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. [/size][/color] [b]Quran: Sura 4 verse 34[/b] Some translators try to downplay the scourging by manipulating the verse. Note the added words (emphasized by black font) in Yusuf Ali's translation, *none* of which are part of the original text: [color="#0000FF"][b] "As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them [color="#000000"](first)[/color], [color="#000000"](Next)[/color], refuse to share their beds, [color="#000000"](And last)[/color] beat them [color="#000000"](lightly)[/color]...[/b][/color][/quote] Do you speak Arabic?
Justified Saint Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782925' date='Feb 16 2009, 06:58 PM']That you took offense at a statement of fact is your problem.[/quote] I said it was tasteless to make light of someone's murder, which is a statement of fact. Maybe we shoud start making new threads everytime a Christian commits a crime and then we can deduce that the Christian religion is consequently evil. That kind of robust reasoning is irrefutable, after all.
Justified Saint Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1782944' date='Feb 16 2009, 07:11 PM']Looks like we may have another secret Muslim on the board [/quote] Being fair-minded doesn't make me a Muslim
Hassan Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1783172' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:11 AM']Being fair-minded doesn't make me a Muslim [/quote] I didn't say Muslim, I said Secret Muslim keep posting here and you'll learn about all sorts of secret muslim beleifs you never even knew you had
Apotheoun Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1783167' date='Feb 16 2009, 09:07 PM']I said it was tasteless to make light of someone's murder, which is a statement of fact. Maybe we shoud start making new threads everytime a Christian commits a crime and then we can deduce that the Christian religion is consequently evil. That kind of robust reasoning is irrefutable, after all.[/quote] I "made light" of no one's murder. I simply stated a fact about Islamic law. Thus, the problem is not in my comments, but in your mind.
Hassan Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1783219' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:22 AM']I "made light" of no one's murder. I simply stated a fact about Islamic law. Thus, the problem is not in my comments, but in your mind.[/quote] I guess that's what I assumed the comment was when I read it (just a statment of fact), although when it comes to text and a lack of body language mistakes can be made. What if the argument stops and everyone just agrees that the whole thing was Kafka's fault? Edited February 17, 2009 by Hassan
Justified Saint Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1783219' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:22 PM']I "made light" of no one's murder. I simply stated a fact about Islamic law. Thus, the problem is not in my comments, but in your mind.[/quote] I am not questioning your right to be tasteless and indecent, just optioning my right to call it as such. If we can be clear about that, I am not really interested anymore in your excuses for your comments, you have already offered enough versions which are conclusive enough for me.
TotusTuusMaria Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1783266' date='Feb 17 2009, 02:57 AM']I am not questioning your right to be tasteless and indecent, just optioning my right to call it as such. If we can be clear about that, I am not really interested anymore in your excuses for your comments, you have already offered enough versions which are conclusive enough for me.[/quote] I thought we were all going to blame kafka? And I really didn't find Apo's comments "tasteless and indecent"... that is a bit dramatic I think. Edited February 17, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria
Justified Saint Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1783221' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:25 PM']I guess that's what I assumed the comment was when I read it (just a statment of fact), although when it comes to text and a lack of body language mistakes can be made. What if the argument stops and everyone just agrees that the whole thing was Kafka's fault? [/quote] The fact remains that this thread was started with dubious intentions compounded by even more dubious attempts to make subtle suggestions about a religion that are entirely out of place. If some people's honesty is to be trusted, then it would only beg the question of why this thread even exists.
TotusTuusMaria Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Justified Saint' post='1783271' date='Feb 17 2009, 03:04 AM']The fact remains that this thread was started with dubious intentions compounded by even more dubious attempts to make subtle suggestions about a religion that are entirely out of place. If some people's honesty is to be trusted, then it would only beg the question of why this thread even exists.[/quote] This woman's head was cut off by her own husband. Are you suggesting we ignore it? If it is not shocking enough about his position and religion, it is even more shocking and thread-worthy that it got little to no media attention when however a Christian woman can shoot and kill her pastor husband in a small little town in the middle of nowhere at a small little church that noone has ever heard of and have weeks worth of CNN coverage. Edited February 17, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria
Justified Saint Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1783270' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:03 AM']I thought we were all going to blame kafka? And I really didn't find Apo's comments "tasteless and indecent"... that is a bit dramatic I think.[/quote] All I said was that it was tasteless and I was fine to leave it at that. Subsequent exchanges with Hassan provoked additional explanations that served only to draw out the latent meaning in the aforementioned comments. And I am not a fan of Kafka. He almost killed senior English for me. So I guess that would make it fitting to blame him?
Justified Saint Posted February 17, 2009 Posted February 17, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1783274' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:08 AM']This woman's head was cut off by her own husband. Are you suggesting we ignore it? If it is not shocking enough about his position and religion, it is even more shocking and thread-worthy that it got little to no media attention when however a Christian woman can shoot and kill her pastor husband in a small little town in the middle of nowhere at a small little church that noone has ever heard of and have weeks worth of CNN coverage.[/quote] If there is something to debate, then debate it. So far, if we are to believe the protestations of some posters, we have just been getting "statements of facts" about a news story. Curiously, you are the first person on this thread to mention anything about a double standard in news coverage. I wonder why that is.
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