Frustrated With An Agnostic(a Story)

[havok579257]

Just thought I would share a story with you guys/gals. So one of my partners at work has been debating with me lately about christianity and how its so off the wall and impossible. She thinks their is a God who created the universe but not our God. She said Jesus is all made up(even though its proven their was Jesus who lived oon this earth). He's made up because the stuff he did is impossible to do, like walk on water and such(no duh, he's the son of God). Although she believes in human evolution even though that has no proof to it. Anyways I asked her once, what would it take for her to believe and get this, she said, Jesus would need to come to earth so she could phsyically touch him and then he would need to do something incredible for her to believe. Plus she said if Jesus was real he would just come down to earth, prove himself to everyone and then go back up to heaven. Since he hasn't done that, he can't be real. Anything short of this she would not believe. Oh and on top of that all, she thinks even if she is wrong and Jesus is real, she will stilll get to heaven because God will say "Well I can see why you doubted me, so no big deal, your welcome into heaven."

This was just a rant, just wanted to get it off my chest.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1797196' date='Mar 4 2009, 11:04 AM']Plus she said if Jesus was real he would just come down to earth, prove himself to everyone and then go back up to heaven. Since he hasn't done that, he can't be real.[/quote]

God wants something more than obedience.

[Mari Therese]

[b]For those who believe, no explanation is necessary, and for those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.[/b]

Good for you for standing up for the Faith. It's an act of mercy to instruct the ignorant. If your instruction will not be heeded, then the next merciful thing you can do is pray for that person to know the truth someday. I had something similar going on at work with an atheist.

[CatherineM]

There are some people in life who just refuse to be confused with the truth. They can be as frustrating to talk to as pro-choice Catholics.

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1797196' date='Mar 4 2009, 08:04 AM']Jesus would need to come to earth so she could phsyically touch him and then he would need to do something incredible for her to believe.[/quote]


Jesus doesn't have to prove Himself to anyone. But I find it interesting that if He decided to show up right in front of her and make physical contact that this isn't 'incredible' enough for her to believe.

I'll pray for her, though!

[Theologian in Training]

Mk 9:23-24

And Jesus said to him, "If you can! All things are possible to him who believes." Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!"

John 20:27-29

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

She is not the first to doubt nor will she be the last, but you might want to ask her, if Jesus really did come down before her and reveal Himself to her, is she positive she would then believe?

[Hassan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1797196' date='Mar 4 2009, 11:04 AM']Just thought I would share a story with you guys/gals. So one of my partners at work has been debating with me lately about christianity and how its so off the wall and impossible. She thinks their is a God who created the universe but not our God. She said Jesus is all made up(even though its proven their was Jesus who lived oon this earth). He's made up because the stuff he did is impossible to do, like walk on water and such(no duh, he's the son of God). Although she believes in human evolution even though that has no proof to it. Anyways I asked her once, what would it take for her to believe and get this, she said, Jesus would need to come to earth so she could phsyically touch him and then he would need to do something incredible for her to believe. Plus she said if Jesus was real he would just come down to earth, prove himself to everyone and then go back up to heaven. Since he hasn't done that, he can't be real. Anything short of this she would not believe. Oh and on top of that all, she thinks even if she is wrong and Jesus is real, she will stilll get to heaven because God will say "Well I can see why you doubted me, so no big deal, your welcome into heaven."

This was just a rant, just wanted to get it off my chest.[/quote]

She could explain that away as a hallucination. Absolute certainty simply does not exist.

The problem with individuals quoting the Bible is that there are two many viable options. It's like Pascal's wager. If there were only one viable religious option than it would make a great deal of sense to be religious. It provides comfort, could be true etc.

What should I have faith in? The Church, Protestant Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc? All of these religions have only very scant supporting evidence with somewhat strong evidence against them.

kind of a croutons shoot, only a really sick one where if you loose you end up in hell.

It reminds me of South Park, when the damned souls protested they were devout Protestants, Catholics etc and the angle said, "um nope, I'm sorry the correct answer was Mormon, that's Mormon"

[scardella]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1797196' date='Mar 4 2009, 11:04 AM']Just thought I would share a story with you guys/gals. So one of my partners at work has been debating with me lately about christianity and how its so off the wall and impossible. She thinks their is a God who created the universe but not our God. She said Jesus is all made up(even though its proven their was Jesus who lived oon this earth). He's made up because the stuff he did is impossible to do, like walk on water and such(no duh, he's the son of God). Although she believes in human evolution even though that has no proof to it. Anyways I asked her once, what would it take for her to believe and get this, she said, Jesus would need to come to earth so she could phsyically touch him and then he would need to do something incredible for her to believe. Plus she said if Jesus was real he would just come down to earth, prove himself to everyone and then go back up to heaven. Since he hasn't done that, he can't be real. Anything short of this she would not believe. Oh and on top of that all, she thinks even if she is wrong and Jesus is real, she will stilll get to heaven because God will say "Well I can see why you doubted me, so no big deal, your welcome into heaven."

This was just a rant, just wanted to get it off my chest.[/quote]


I suppose it wouldn't help to point out how she's contradicting herself. She basically wants Jesus to come down and do again exactly what he already did... but she refuses to believe the first instance. Why would she believe the second?

[eagle_eye222001]

Some people will still believe their theory even if you blow up the bottom of their boat and sink it all the way down to the bottom of the Mariana Trench. There are people I have stopped debating with because they absolutely refuse to objectively consider what I had to say. At that point, there is no debate and no real conversation and nothing more is to be benefited by either party speaking. One can only pray and hope that the other person secretly agrees with you but for prideful reasons, they hold onto their sinking rock. Maybe later they encounter another person and after a similar debate, they give weight to your ideas.

However, when it becomes obvious you are talking to a brick wall, I think it is prudent to state calmly and respectively to the other person, that since they are ignoring what you have to say, there is no point in continuing the debate and leave it at that.

Yes you will watch them try to pull a victory flag and throw out the last word and boast how you "gave up", however, we should remember that we are not evangelizing because we want to relish the victory lap or because we want to personally gain status from it, rather we evangelize to bring light to the truth and if others refuse to admit it, we can only try so much before it is pointless and we should move on.




[i]14 And if anyone does not welcome you or listen to what you have to say, as you walk out of the house or town shake the dust from your feet.[/i]
-Matthew 10:14

[quote name='Hassan' post='1797328' date='Mar 4 2009, 02:12 PM']...

What should I have faith in? The Church, Protestant Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc? All of these religions have only very scant supporting evidence with somewhat strong evidence against them.[/quote]

Depends on what you consider "scant" and what is "strong ...against."

I as many others [b]STRONGLY [/b]disagree that the Church has scant evidence and a lot against it. I think you have much more objective research to do and are giving bigger weight to skeptics than is properly due.


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Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/nickelback/track/see+you+at+the+show"]Nickelback - See You At The Show[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[Hassan]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1797473' date='Mar 4 2009, 06:06 PM']Depends on what you consider "scant" and what is "strong ...against."

I as many others [b]STRONGLY [/b]disagree that the Church has scant evidence and a lot against it. I think you have much more objective research to do and are giving bigger weight to skeptics than is properly due.


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Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/nickelback/track/see+you+at+the+show"]Nickelback - See You At The Show[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote]


Is there any strong evidence you would like to suggust?

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1797493' date='Mar 4 2009, 05:36 PM']Is there any strong evidence you would like to suggust?[/quote]
You claimed strong evidence against the Church. I 'suggust' you lead by example

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1797493' date='Mar 4 2009, 05:36 PM']Is there any strong evidence you would like to suggust?[/quote]
notardillacid has it right. You made the first claim. It is up to you show why first.

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1797495' date='Mar 4 2009, 05:38 PM']You claimed strong evidence against the Church. I 'suggust' you lead by example[/quote]



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Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/linkin+park/track/the+little+things+give+you+away"]Linkin Park - The Little Things Give You Away[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[bonkers]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1797473' date='Mar 4 2009, 06:06 PM']There are people I have stopped debating with because they absolutely refuse to objectively consider what I had to say.[/quote]

Probably yours and their perception of what is "objective" is very different. One of the most frusturating things about debating with Christians is they refuse to see things from the opponents perspective. It's immediately discerned that their opponent is ignorant, deceived and possibly stupid and requires instruction and enlightenment in order to arrive at the truth. This would be fine if the Christians could provide some evidence to support their extremely dubious claims, but often we are bombarded with empty emotional appeals, usually something to do with the awesome power of the Eucharist or quoted something vague from the bible. Christians are also incapable of accepting that after much time and study some people just don't see it as objectively true. They usually have to assume we are ignorant or stupid or something to rationalize this.

[bonkers]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1797495' date='Mar 4 2009, 06:38 PM']You claimed strong evidence against the Church. I 'suggust' you lead by example[/quote]

There is no strong evidence against the church, at least from your perspective. According to you, the church is perfect, absolutely free from any error whatsoever, so even if there was strong evidence against the church, you would never ever accept it, you would just go about a way of rationalising it so it doesn't conflict with your beliefs and values. It's like fundies who are convinced the bible is free from error and the earth is 10,000 years old, it wouldn't matter if evolution was proven they would still find a way to disbelieve it. At least hassan is more flexible in his beliefs and open to evidence, whereas you are totally rigid and unlikely ever to even consider evidence which contradicts your religion.

[havok579257]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1797556' date='Mar 4 2009, 07:33 PM']There is no strong evidence against the church, at least from your perspective. According to you, the church is perfect, absolutely free from any error whatsoever, so even if there was strong evidence against the church, you would never ever accept it, you would just go about a way of rationalising it so it doesn't conflict with your beliefs and values. It's like fundies who are convinced the bible is free from error and the earth is 10,000 years old, it wouldn't matter if evolution was proven they would still find a way to disbelieve it. At least hassan is more flexible in his beliefs and open to evidence, whereas you are totally rigid and unlikely ever to even consider evidence which contradicts your religion.[/quote]


Or like people who believe in human evolution but there is no evidence to the fact, correct? Your also making a point against all atheists who believe they are 100% right and no matter what point you bring up, they won;t even consider your side. Although I like how you left them out and its only us christian's who are like this. The atheists of the world are so great in letting christian's speak and hearing their side of the arguement and having a clear open mind of things.

Your agruement is lame. Your basically saying if I bring anything up, you won't believe me, so I won't bring anything up. Could it be, its because you have nothing to bring up? Just saying, its lame to come on here and insult people but have nothing to back up your claims.