Frustrated With An Agnostic(a Story)

[havok579257]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1797551' date='Mar 4 2009, 07:27 PM']Probably yours and their perception of what is "objective" is very different. One of the most frusturating things about debating with Christians is they refuse to see things from the opponents perspective. It's immediately discerned that their opponent is ignorant, deceived and possibly stupid and requires instruction and enlightenment in order to arrive at the truth. This would be fine if the Christians could provide some evidence to support their extremely dubious claims, but often we are bombarded with empty emotional appeals, usually something to do with the awesome power of the Eucharist or quoted something vague from the bible. Christians are also incapable of accepting that after much time and study some people just don't see it as objectively true. They usually have to assume we are ignorant or stupid or something to rationalize this.[/quote]


And one of the most frustrating things about atheists is they think they are all smarter than christians because they don't believe in so called "fairy tales", they believe in reality and we low level thinking christians are not smart because we believe where there is not 100% evidence of something. Although they then discount the fact that there is not proof of human evoultion or how the earth came to be. yet, they ignore those things are just think we are below them because we can't see the truth only they see.

[Nihil Obstat]

You just avoided the question.

What is your 'strong evidence'?

Assuming we're not going to accept it is pretty downright ignorant.

[Hassan]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1797545' date='Mar 4 2009, 08:13 PM']notardillacid has it right. You made the first claim. It is up to you show why first.





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Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/linkin+park/track/the+little+things+give+you+away"]Linkin Park - The Little Things Give You Away[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote]


It wasn't a debating point I just really wanted to know. If you have strong evidence I'd love to see it.

[Hassan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1797588' date='Mar 4 2009, 09:03 PM']Or like people who believe in human evolution but there is no evidence to the fact, correct? Your also making a point against all atheists who believe they are 100% right and no matter what point you bring up, they won;t even consider your side. Although I like how you left them out and its only us christian's who are like this. The atheists of the world are so great in letting christian's speak and hearing their side of the arguement and having a clear open mind of things.

Your agruement is lame. Your basically saying if I bring anything up, you won't believe me, so I won't bring anything up. Could it be, its because you have nothing to bring up? Just saying, its lame to come on here and insult people but have nothing to back up your claims.[/quote]

There is a great deal of evidence for human evolution.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1797768' date='Mar 4 2009, 11:38 PM']There is a great deal of evidence for human evolution.[/quote]

There is a great deal of evidence against human evolution.

[Nihil Obstat]

There's an even greater deal of evidence that evolution does not disprove faith.

[KnightofChrist]

There have been a great many scientific theories of the origin of man, evolution is politically the strongest one we are currently living under.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1797793' date='Mar 4 2009, 11:52 PM']There's an even greater deal of evidence that evolution does not disprove faith. [/quote]
We need a "Ding,Ding,Ding!" smiley.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1797756' date='Mar 4 2009, 10:33 PM']It wasn't a debating point I just really wanted to know. If you have strong evidence I'd love to see it.[/quote]

In post 7 you cited "somewhat strong evidence against them. "

You made the first claim here in the thread. I threw a challenge flag. So now that play needs to be reviewed and backed up to this post in question.

[Hassan]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1797848' date='Mar 5 2009, 01:15 AM']In post 7 you cited "somewhat strong evidence against them. "

You made the first claim here in the thread. I threw a challenge flag. So now that play needs to be reviewed and backed up to this post in question.[/quote]


I think contemporary neuroscience has pretty well debunked the idea of an immortal substance distinct from the brain somehow exercising effective control over the body through the brain. The Bible has increasingly had to recede the authority of its claims. Not only is it's account of creation, if contemporary science is even almost near the ballpark, utter non sense but the historical veracity of its claims, particularly such events as Exodus are quite dubious. It is not simply that a literal account of Genesis is dubious; it's totally off the mark. The scientific data seems fairly clear. Organisms were not created by some omnipotent deity; rather they evolved from a single celled organism through "chance and necessity". Pain and suffering were not introduced through any sin of our ancestors; rather they have been part of the world even before the first human being was ever created.

Now we can debate the merit of any of these off the top of the head suggustion but first I would like to see your strong evidence for Christianity. Do you have any?

[ardillacid]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1797551' date='Mar 4 2009, 07:27 PM']Probably yours and their perception of what is "objective" is very different. One of the most frusturating things about debating with Christians is they refuse to see things from the opponents perspective. It's immediately discerned that their opponent is ignorant, deceived and possibly stupid and requires instruction and enlightenment in order to arrive at the truth. This would be fine if the Christians could provide some evidence to support their extremely dubious claims, but often we are bombarded with empty emotional appeals, usually something to do with the awesome power of the Eucharist or quoted something vague from the bible. Christians are also incapable of accepting that after much time and study some people just don't see it as objectively true. They usually have to assume we are ignorant or stupid or something to rationalize this.[/quote]
Thanks for that summary of me. Its like you know me better than I do.

In actuality, I've known a disproportionate amount of atheists/agnostics/anti-christians, and debated them to the death. I've heard all of your arguments, and quite frankly, atheists bore me.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1797946' date='Mar 5 2009, 02:20 AM']I think contemporary neuroscience has pretty well debunked the idea of an immortal substance distinct from the brain somehow exercising effective control over the body through the brain. The Bible has increasingly had to recede the authority of its claims. Not only is it's account of creation, if contemporary science is even almost near the ballpark, utter non sense but the historical veracity of its claims, particularly such events as Exodus are quite dubious. It is not simply that a literal account of Genesis is dubious; it's totally off the mark. The scientific data seems fairly clear. Organisms were not created by some omnipotent deity; rather they evolved from a single celled organism through "chance and necessity". Pain and suffering were not introduced through any sin of our ancestors; rather they have been part of the world even before the first human being was ever created.

Now we can debate the merit of any of these off the top of the head suggustion but first I would like to see your strong evidence for Christianity. Do you have any?[/quote]
Life does not spring from non-living matter. THAT is science! Organisms did not spring from a primordial sludge that was struck by lightning at the opportune moment and somehow infuse life into a super-simple single cell organism (which had somehow created its 'shell' and inner mechanisms so that the lightning had something to strike of course). This organism did not reproduce rapidly enough to a population great enough that they could fa[i]r[/i]t out enough oxygen that the entire atmosphere was changed (coincidently of course) to an environment that could sustain life as we know it. These organisms didn't then evolve to breathe oxygen, and turn into cows which promptly evolved into whales. All of this was driven by a supercomputer, the likes of which humans cannot even come close. Naturally, somehow this supercomputer also created itself to be ready to go when the magic lightning struck the lifeless Frankenstein single cell corpse.

Disrespect breeds contempt, Hassan. Keep it up.

Edited March 5, 2009 by notardillacid

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1797946' date='Mar 5 2009, 02:20 AM']I think contemporary neuroscience has pretty well debunked the idea of an immortal substance distinct from the brain somehow exercising effective control over the body through the brain.[/quote]
What animates the body? I missed that article in New England Journal of Medicine

Edited March 5, 2009 by notardillacid

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b][url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Creation_and_Genesis.asp"]Creation and Genesis[/url][/b] - [url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-augustine-of-hippo/"]Saint Augustine of Hippo[/url]
"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, [b][u]may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian[/u][/b]. [u]It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so [b]idiotically[/b] on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings[/u], [b][u]that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are[/u][/b]. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation" ([b]The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20[/b] [A.D. 408]).[/quote][b]The Bible is firstly and primarily a religious text[/b]. It is not a history text, a biological text, scientific text, or even a catechetical text; [u]though in limited ways it does contain attributes of these[/u]. Under [i]traditional authorship theory[/i], the author of the Book of Genesis is Moses, [i]and according to some people’s calculations[/i], the author of Genesis was covering nearly seven thousand years of history. Even when we look at the account of “[i]creation[/i]” from Genesis there are two versions of creation, [b][url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/01001.htm"]Genesis 1[/url][/b] and [b][url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/01002.htm"]Genesis 2[/url][/b]. These two creation accounts can be reconciled easily, but still nonetheless two accounts. [b]So[/b] if we look at the Christian creation story in context, it can be considered by some a “[i]myth[/i]”, [u]not in the sense that it is false[/u], but that its not intended to be taken as historical or scientific fact. [url="http://saints.sqpn.com/saint-augustine-of-hippo"][b]Saint Augustine of Hippo[/b][/url] is a Church Father and Doctor of the Church, [i]so if the text I quoted is reliable[/i], I think that it may reaffirm what I proposed prior.

[b]Simply put[/b], by no stretch of the imagination does the disproving of “[i]Genesis[/i]”, disprove anything concerning Catholicism or the existence of God. From [i]a historical perspective of the Christian Scriptures[/i], the understanding of the Scriptures has been changed slightly because of advances in reason and science. Which is apart of the relationship between Faith and Reason/Science and Religion; But still in a historical context I find it difficult to suggest that any interpretation, [i][b]except of that held by extreme fundamentalist[/b][/i], from a Catholic viewpoint has been in erroneous. The reason why the issue with Geocentrism was so massive, there was a large faction of the Church that felt Geocentrism was in error or at least could be questioned.

The soul, [i]the last I checked[/i], is something [b]spiritual[/b] or metaphysical, something that is beyond the mere biological and physical workings of the body. [i]Humans do seem in my personal opinion more than the sum of their parts[/i]. In how any person will be viewed by God, this verse from the Gospel of Saint John the Apostle comes to mind.[quote][b][url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49012.htm"]Luke 12:46-48[/url][/b]
[color="#FF0000"]The lord of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at the hour that he knoweth not, and shall separate him, [b][u]and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers[/u][/b]. And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.[/color][/quote]

Edited March 5, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[bonkers]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1797588' date='Mar 4 2009, 09:03 PM']Or like people who believe in human evolution but there is no evidence to the fact, correct? Your also making a point against all atheists who believe they are 100% right and no matter what point you bring up, they won;t even consider your side. Although I like how you left them out and its only us christian's who are like this. The atheists of the world are so great in letting christian's speak and hearing their side of the arguement and having a clear open mind of things.[/quote]

There is plenty of evidence for evolution. Regarding your point about atheists, most intelligent, educated atheists would call themselves "weak" atheists, which means they lack a belief in god but their conviction is not strong enough to rule one out altogether. There are some "strong" atheists, but they are generally in the minority (not that there is anythign wrong with that). In my experience, it's the Christians who claim to be 100% correct and own copyright to the ultimate truth and all of its precepts. Atheists make no such claims, the only claim we make is a lack of belief in god, what we believe about morality, evolution, meaning, truth, reality, free will etc is a matter of personal opinion and open to debate.

[quote]Your agruement is lame. Your basically saying if I bring anything up, you won't believe me, so I won't bring anything up. Could it be, its because you have nothing to bring up? Just saying, its lame to come on here and insult people but have nothing to back up your claims.[/quote]

If you brought up a good argument based on sound reasoning and it made credible sense and supported it with some evidence that might be a claim worth considering. However, I don't think you do, ever. I've heard all the arguments before, but being completely honest here, I think those claims are ludicrous. Original sin, genesis, crucifixition and resurrection, angels, demons, end times, heaven and hell, none of those sound credible at all to me, and it doesn't help when there is no evidence to support them.

Edited March 5, 2009 by bonkers

[bonkers]

[quote name='notardillacid' post='1797963' date='Mar 5 2009, 06:11 AM']Thanks for that summary of me. Its like you know me better than I do. [/quote]

Well, to be honest, I've seen it questioned on another Catholic board as to why Catholics leave the church and become atheists, and the prevailing consenus is because of "ignorance" and "not understanding the mass", and I thought I could relate to that being myself an ex Catholic.

[quote]In actuality, I've known a disproportionate amount of atheists/agnostics/anti-christians, and debated them to the death. I've heard all of your arguments, and quite frankly, atheists bore me.[/quote]

Well, it's not about entertainment, it's about truth, the truth being that which conforms with reality. I find Catholics both interesting and perplexing to debate, perplexing that intelligent people could believe in the things they do without question. Then again I do understand where a lot of them are coming from, but it is not from a positon of truth. God probably does not exist. This isn't boring, it's ever more fascinating we are here without an omnipotent bully dictating everything and threatening us with eternal torture if we choose not to be his friend.