Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801828' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:29 PM']And according to you the older one was punishmed more harshly because he should have known better.[/quote]

The parents believed that the older sibling should have known better because with age comes knowledge and experience, even though the younger sibling was fully aware what he was doing was a mortal sin. Maybe the older sibling tempted the younger sibling, and the younger sibling followed the example of his older sibling (still fully aware it would be a mortal sin).

[quote]If seperation from God is seperation how can he be more guilty than his younger brother?[/quote]

CMom said this earlier which I feel is hugely important: [b]Since any mortal sin kills grace in the soul all mortal sins are in that respect equal. The gravity of the actual offense differs because missing Mass harms yourself, but murdering someone obviously harms them and yourself to a far greater degree.[/b] You can apply that to this situation. Perhaps the older sibling led the younger sibling into sin so the older sibling's offense has a higher gravity and thus warrants more punishment.


[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801829' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:29 PM']so what about my example? imagine the kids are of equal age, but one kid steals from his parents, the other rents a prostitute andf entertains her on his parents bed. the latter will be punished worse than the former because the sin was worse, even though they are both mortal sins.[/quote]

See what I quoted from CMom above.



Side note: Is it just me, or has the OP [b]not[/b] participated at all in HIS thread?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1801831' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:32 PM']If it doesn't mean that one mortal sin is worse than another, then fine. But what does it mean then?[/quote]

CMom summed up the answer to this very nicely.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801837' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:36 PM']CMom said this earlier which I feel is hugely important: [b]Since any mortal sin kills grace in the soul all mortal sins are in that respect equal. The gravity of the actual offense differs because missing Mass harms yourself, but murdering someone obviously harms them and yourself to a far greater degree.[/b] You can apply that to this situation. Perhaps the older sibling led the younger sibling into sin so the older sibling's offense has a higher gravity and thus warrants more punishment.[/quote]

What do you all mean by Gravity of the sin?

[Aloysius]

if different sins harm society to different degrees, how hard is it to imagine that they harm yourself in different ways? yes, they kill grace in your soul, but the sin can wound your soul more or less based upon how bad it is...

[quote]Hence the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. v), in declaring that all mortal sins must be confessed, makes special mention of those that are most secret and that violate only the last two precepts of the Decalogue, adding that they "sometimes more grievously wound the soul and are more dangerous than sins which are openly committed".[/quote] [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm[/url]

remember, all the sins of the Decalogue (ten commandments) are mortal/grave sins. Trent says, however, that the last two can more greviously wound the soul.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801841' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:40 PM']CMom summed up the answer to this very nicely.[/quote]


And what do you read "gravity" of the sin as meaning? I would assume it means one is more grave than another.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801847' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:42 PM']And what do you read "gravity" of the sin as meaning? I would assume it means one is more grave than another.[/quote]

I believe it is not one being more grave than the other but one having more grave outcomes.

[Resurrexi]

Though I'm sure that many here will not care what St. Thomas Aquinas has to say, the Church seems to value his theology as she decrees that to seminarians "lectures are to be given in dogmatic theology, based always on the written word of God and on sacred Tradition; through them the students are to learn to penetrate more deeply into the mysteries of salvation, [b]with St. Thomas in particular as their teacher[/b]." (CIC 252 §3, my emphasis added)

"I answer that, The defect in sin consists in its aversion from God, as stated above (Question 10, Article 3): and this aversion would not have the character of guilt, were it not voluntary. Hence the nature of guilt consists in a voluntary aversion from God.

Now this voluntary aversion from God is directly implied in the hatred of God, but in other sins, by participation and indirectly. For just as the will cleaves directly to what it loves, so does it directly shun what it hates. [b]Hence when a man hates God, his will is directly averted from God, whereas in other sins, fornication for instance, a man turns away from God, not directly, but indirectly[/b], in so far, namely, as he desires an inordinate pleasure, to which aversion from God is connected. Now that which is so by itself, always takes precedence of that which is so by another. [b]Wherefore hatred of God is more grievous than other sins.[/b]" (Summa Theologiae, II-II, Q. 34, Art. II with my emphasis added)

St. Thomas Aquinas states that hatred of God is greater than other sins, and give fornication for an example of a less grievous sin. If you will notice, [b]they are both grave sins[/b]. Which would leave one to conclude that there is varying gravity among grave sins.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801853' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:46 PM']I believe it is not one being more grave than the other but one having more grave outcomes.[/quote]


for the culture or the sinner?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1801855' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:47 PM']St. Thomas Aquinas states that hatred of God is greater than other sins, and give fornication for an example of a less grievous sin. If you will notice, [b]they are both grave sins[/b]. Which would leave one to conclude that there is varying gravity among grave sins.[/quote]

It has already been mentioned that not all grave sins are mortal sins.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801853' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:46 PM']I believe it is not one being more grave than the other but one having more grave outcomes.[/quote]

how can this be? How can an equal sin harbor a worse punishment? and why would a just God allow it?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801856' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:48 PM']for the culture or the sinner?[/quote]

Come on, Hassan. Her post implies BOTH.

[quote]Since any mortal sin kills grace in the soul all mortal sins are in that respect equal. The gravity of the actual offense differs because missing Mass harms yourself, but murdering someone obviously harms them and yourself to a far greater degree.[/quote]

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801837' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:36 PM']CMom said this earlier which I feel is hugely important: [b]Since any mortal sin kills grace in the soul all mortal sins are in that respect equal. The gravity of the actual offense differs because missing Mass harms yourself, but murdering someone obviously harms them and yourself to a far greater degree.[/b] You can apply that to this situation. Perhaps the older sibling led the younger sibling into sin so the older sibling's offense has a higher gravity and thus warrants more punishment.[/quote]

Thanks...that's what I was trying to say...I didn't see that she'd said that.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1801859' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:50 PM']how can this be? How can an equal sin harbor a worse punishment? and why would a just God allow it?[/quote]

You should have read the entire thread before "jumping" in.

[Resurrexi]

Fornication and hatred of God are both mortally sinful if they are human acts.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801858' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:49 PM']It has already been mentioned that not all grave sins are mortal sins.[/quote]

The point of my quotation from the Summa wasn't to argue about the terminology of grave sin vs. mortal sin, it was to say that St. Thomas, a Saint and Doctor of the Church whose theology must be taught to seminarians according to the Code of Canon Law, taught that fornication (a grave matter) was was less grave a sin than hatred of God (another grave matter).

Edited March 9, 2009 by Resurrexi

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801863' date='Mar 9 2009, 05:51 PM']You should have read the entire thread before "jumping" in.[/quote]

nice try . I did read every single post, just haven't posted myself until now. If you don't have the answer then fine, I didn't expect one.

[Resurrexi]

Another quote from St. Thomas:

"I answer that, As is clear from what has been said (71, 5), the gravity of sins varies in the same way as one sickness is graver than another: for just as the good of health consists in a certain commensuration of the humors, in keeping with an animal's nature, so the good of virtue consists in a certain commensuration of the human act in accord with the rule of reason. Now it is evident that the higher the principle the disorder of which causes the disorder in the humors, the graver is the sickness: thus a sickness which comes on the human body from the heart, which is the principle of life, or from some neighboring part, is more dangerous. Wherefore a sin must needs be so much the graver, as the disorder occurs in a principle which is higher in the order of reason. Now in matters of action the reason directs all things in view of the end: wherefore the higher the end which attaches to sins in human acts, the graver the sin. Now the object of an act is its end, as stated above (72, 3, ad 2); and consequently the difference of gravity in sins depends on their objects. Thus it is clear that external things are directed to man as their end, while man is further directed to God as his end. [b]Wherefore a sin which is about the very substance of man, e.g. murder, is graver than a sin which is about external things, e.g. theft; and graver still is a sin committed directly against God, e.g. unbelief, blasphemy, and the like: and in each of these grades of sin, one sin will be graver than another according as it is about a higher or lower principle[/b]. And forasmuch as sins take their species from their objects, the difference of gravity which is derived from the objects is first and foremost, as resulting from the species." (Summa Theologiae II-I, Q. 73, Art. 3)

St. Thomas Aquinas just said that murder (always a grave matter) is graver than theft (which can be a grave matter). He also said that blasphemy (which is always a grave matter) is a graver sin than murder.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Resurrexi

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1801864' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:51 PM']Fornication and hatred of God are both mortally sinful if they are human acts.[/quote]

[u]Mortal Sin[/u]
[b]1. Know that it is a grave matter[/b]
2. Commits this grave matter on purpose
3. Does it of his own free will

Hatred of God [u]is[/u] more grave than fornication but they are BOTH grave matters, fulfilling criteria number one on the "mortal sin list."

I see it as this -

[u]Mortal Sin: Hatred of God[/u]
1. Know that it is a [b]very, very grave matter[/b]
2. Commits this grave matter on purpose
3. Does it of his own free will

=

[u]Mortal Sin: Fornication[/u]
1. Know that it is a [b]grave matter[/b]
2. Commits this grave matter on purpose
3. Does it of his own free will

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1801869' date='Mar 9 2009, 06:59 PM']nice try . I did read every single post, just haven't posted myself until now. If you don't have the answer then fine, I didn't expect one.[/quote]

No need to get snippy, sweetheart. If you did not expect an answer you would have NOT posed a question. Your question has been answered already.

[rkwright]

So wait... now do we have 3 levels of sin??

We have mortal sin

grave sin

and venial sin?