Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801560' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:33 PM']Kicking a cat is not a mortal sin.[/quote]


I understand that but just for a moment let's pretend it is.

I'm not trying to be cute by the way. The Pope would be an undisputable example, in my mind, of someone held to a greater example than I, but I didn't want to use an action for a sin that would be offensive. Kicking a cat was the first kind of silly example I could think of that I didn;t think would cause offense.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Hassan

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801562' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:34 PM']I understand that but just for a moment let's pretend it is.[/quote]

Okay. So it is not about who has the [b]greater[/b] sin (because mortal sin is mortal sin) but who has [b]committed[/b] mortal sin.

My younger brother sometimes works on Sundays and misses Mass. Of course I do not know what is truly in his heart but from my discussions with him I know he is not devout and in not being devout he does not understand (or is even AWARE of) many Church teachings. Is his missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? There is a good chance the answer is "no." Is my missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? I would undoubtedly say "yes."

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801561' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:34 PM']but those are both factors, and the exclude the former as a factor is to exclude common sense and logic in a case when the Church has not something contrary to common sense and logic (the way she has regarding the Eucharist, that teaching is contrary to common sense and at common logic, [b]but the Church says so so it is so[/b])[/quote]


And the Church, no matter how you slice it does not say that there are varying degrees of mortal sin.

You want to hold that opinion, if the Church doesn't state it, you can't call it fact derived from logic.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801568' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:40 PM']Okay. So it is not about who has the [b]greater[/b] sin (because mortal sin is mortal sin) but who has [b]committed[/b] mortal sin.

My younger brother sometimes works on Sundays and misses Mass. Of course I do not know what is truly in his heart but from my discussions with him I know he is not devout and in not being devout he does not understand (or is even AWARE of) many Church teachings. Is his missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? There is a good chance the answer is "no." Is my missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? I would undoubtedly say "yes."[/quote]


ok let me ask it like this. Even if I and the Pope commit a mortal sin "x" would you deney that the Pope would have greater culpability?

[dairygirl4u2c]

this debate amongst you guys mostly looks like semantics, not an actual disagreement.

"levels" of hell translates into "pains" of hell, they can mean the same thing.
i don't see anyone disagreeing in substance, that i can see anyway.
my guess is people are just being argumentative and seeing an argument where there is none.

hischild etc are correct that there's no degree of "complete separation" but if there's degree of guilt etc, then there's no difference necessarily about what you guys are arguing.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801561' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:34 PM']then why is X punished worse than Y? God's whims? to me, it is a combination of either X did something which was worse than Y, or X did something in a worse way than Y did something. but those are both factors, and the exclude the former as a factor is to exclude common sense and logic in a case when the Church has not something contrary to common sense and logic (the way she has regarding the Eucharist, that teaching is contrary to common sense and at common logic, but the Church says so so it is so)[/quote]

But this sounds like you are trying to find a "guilt loophole". Is it reassuring in any way to think "my mortal sin is not as bad as HER mortal sin!"

Mortal sin will get you to Hell, period, no question about it. If there were "varying degrees" of mortal sin then would not a "lesser" mortal sin get you to Purgatory?

[Aloysius]

but what if both people commit mortal sin?

mortal sins [b]are grave sins[/b], actually. the distinction of using the term "mortal" to refer only to sins which actually fit all three criteria is a useful distinction often used to help people understand the difference, but a "mortal sin," when one is not refering to the specific action of a specific person, is simply a sin of grave matter. it is referred to as a "mortal sin" because it can potentially send one to hell, it can potentially kill the soul.

now, I imagine you'll want a source on that or something, though I'd ask for a source which says they're not the same. here's a link of an expert using the terms equivalently:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mortal_versus_venial.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mortal_versus_venial.htm[/url]

[quote]Hence the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. v), in declaring that all mortal sins must be confessed, makes special mention of those that are most secret and that violate only the last two precepts of the Decalogue, adding that they "sometimes more grievously wound the soul and are more dangerous than sins which are openly committed".[/quote]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm[/url]
that whole link is very pertinent to this discussion, IMO...

[Hassan]

Let me see if I am correct here, nobody disagrees with the following

-A Mortal sin leads to damnation
-damned souls suffer varying degrees of pain in hell
-these varying degrees are the result of greater guilt

yes?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801574' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:41 PM']ok let me ask it like this. Even if I and the Pope commit a mortal sin "x" would you deney that the Pope would have greater culpability?[/quote]

Yes, I would deny that.

If you both committed a mortal sin that means you BOTH fulfilled the three criteria. It is only a mortal sin if you fit those criteria.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801578' date='Mar 9 2009, 04:42 PM']But this sounds like you are trying to find a "guilt loophole". Is it reassuring in any way to think "my mortal sin is not as bad as HER mortal sin!"

Mortal sin will get you to Hell, period, no question about it. If there were "varying degrees" of mortal sin then would not a "lesser" mortal sin get you to Purgatory?[/quote]
NO... purgatory is a path to heaven. if you have a mortal sin, you go to hell, but are punished to varying degrees. NO mortal sin is EVER a good idea, because hell is horrible for everyone who goes; but it is worse for those who do worse things than it is for those who do not do as bad of things. this is not a loophole, it's simply a fact that those in eternal punishment are punished with different degrees of punishment.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801578' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:42 PM']But this sounds like you are trying to find a "guilt loophole". Is it reassuring in any way to think "my mortal sin is not as bad as HER mortal sin![/quote]

I guess I wouldn't consider a 14 year old falling into mortal sin by getting drunk off alchohol he stole from his parents cabnit on the same plane as hacking up a hooker Bundi picked up.

[dairygirl4u2c]

"There is no such thing as a "lesser" mortal sin. "

or when hischild says this, when i she also said "you can't compare mortal sins cause they are differnt", i don't think there's any disagreement. see, i could read into this an argument that's not there, or put words in her mouth "you just said you can't compare, but njow you say there's no such thing as lesser mortal sins", but i would be missing her point.
again i'd be seeing an argument where htere is none, or misunderstanding.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801585' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:45 PM']Yes, I would deny that.

If you both committed a mortal sin that means you BOTH fulfilled the three criteria. It is only a mortal sin if you fit those criteria.[/quote]


Then why the different pains of hell for different souls?

[Hassan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1801591' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:47 PM']"There is no such thing as a "lesser" mortal sin. "

or when hischild says this, when i she also said "you can't compare mortal sins cause they are differnt", i don't think there's any disagreement. see, i could read into this an argument that's not there, or put words in her mouth "you just said you can't compare, but njow you say there's no such thing as lesser mortal sins", but i would be missing her point.
again i'd be seeing an argument where htere is none, or misunderstanding.[/quote]


If you are saying the different people here may be saying the same thing in different ways I think that may be correct.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801596' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:49 PM']If you are saying the different people here may be saying the same thing in different ways I think that may be correct.[/quote]

exactly what i'm saying.
a tragedy is that at least half of all arguments i see don't involve people actually disagreeing, it's people aruging the same thing and not realizing it, or just arguing two sides of the same coin. (in this case, the same thing


[quote]this debate amongst you guys mostly looks like semantics, not an actual disagreement.

"levels" of hell translates into "pains" of hell, they can mean the same thing.
i don't see anyone disagreeing in substance, that i can see anyway.
my guess is people are just being argumentative and seeing an argument where there is none.

hischild etc are correct that there's no degree of "complete separation" but if there's degree of guilt etc, then there's no difference necessarily about what you guys are arguing.[/quote]

Edited March 9, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c