Murder Vs. Missing Mass

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801540' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:24 PM']Yeah that's why I was confused with the teaching that each soul in Hell experiences the pain differently, I took that to mean Hell looks like an apartment complex and each floor gets worse as you go down.



Right, but you have to remember that you have to fulfill three criteria to commit a mortal sin and one of those criteria is that you are fully aware that what you are doing is gravely wrong. I personally believe some Catholics are held to higher standards than others simply because they know better - they know the teachings of the Church better and should be held more accountable. (This does not mean that the Catholics that know less should not try and learn, I hope you get my point.)[/quote]


Ok. So the Pope kicks a cat and falls into mortal sin (just the first thing that came to mind) and I kick a cat and fall into mortal sin, the Pope's sin is greater because of his knowledge etc?

[rkwright]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1801542' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:24 PM']citing common sense isn't exactly a great debate tactic. It also removes all need for theology. Is it common sense that a wafer and a cup of wine become the body and blood of Christ? Nope. That's why we look at Church teaching. All the Church will tell you is that mortal sins cause a complete separation between man and God. She does not say that there are varying degrees of "complete separation".[/quote]

I'm not sure if you just misspoke, but isn't that exactly what the church is saying? There are varying degrees of "complete separation"? The quote from Ott's book says there are varying degrees of the pain of separation and varying degrees of the pain of punishment. Thats what we have as far as "cites".

I don't think there have been any sources that say each mortal sin is different, but thats not what you said?

But thats Al just following naturally from the source that there are different punishments in hell.

Edit: Maybe Al has a better understanding of your word choice?

Edited March 9, 2009 by rkwright

[Jaime]

[quote][b]1857[/b] For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131[/quote]


There are varying degrees of grave sins. And the Church talks about that. But grave sins does not equal mortal sins.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801552' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:30 PM']Ok. So the Pope kicks a cat and falls into mortal sin (just the first thing that came to mind) and I kick a cat and fall into mortal sin, the Pope's sin is greater because of his knowledge etc?[/quote]

Kicking a cat is not a mortal sin.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801551' date='Mar 9 2009, 04:30 PM']But this does NOT mean that X's mortal sin and Y's mortal sin differ.[/quote]
then why is X punished worse than Y? God's whims? to me, it is a combination of either X did something which was worse than Y, or X did something in a worse way than Y did something. but those are both factors, and the exclude the former as a factor is to exclude common sense and logic in a case when the Church has not something contrary to common sense and logic (the way she has regarding the Eucharist, that teaching is contrary to common sense and at common logic, but the Church says so so it is so)

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801560' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:33 PM']Kicking a cat is not a mortal sin.[/quote]


I understand that but just for a moment let's pretend it is.

I'm not trying to be cute by the way. The Pope would be an undisputable example, in my mind, of someone held to a greater example than I, but I didn't want to use an action for a sin that would be offensive. Kicking a cat was the first kind of silly example I could think of that I didn;t think would cause offense.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Hassan

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801562' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:34 PM']I understand that but just for a moment let's pretend it is.[/quote]

Okay. So it is not about who has the [b]greater[/b] sin (because mortal sin is mortal sin) but who has [b]committed[/b] mortal sin.

My younger brother sometimes works on Sundays and misses Mass. Of course I do not know what is truly in his heart but from my discussions with him I know he is not devout and in not being devout he does not understand (or is even AWARE of) many Church teachings. Is his missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? There is a good chance the answer is "no." Is my missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? I would undoubtedly say "yes."

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801561' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:34 PM']but those are both factors, and the exclude the former as a factor is to exclude common sense and logic in a case when the Church has not something contrary to common sense and logic (the way she has regarding the Eucharist, that teaching is contrary to common sense and at common logic, [b]but the Church says so so it is so[/b])[/quote]


And the Church, no matter how you slice it does not say that there are varying degrees of mortal sin.

You want to hold that opinion, if the Church doesn't state it, you can't call it fact derived from logic.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801568' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:40 PM']Okay. So it is not about who has the [b]greater[/b] sin (because mortal sin is mortal sin) but who has [b]committed[/b] mortal sin.

My younger brother sometimes works on Sundays and misses Mass. Of course I do not know what is truly in his heart but from my discussions with him I know he is not devout and in not being devout he does not understand (or is even AWARE of) many Church teachings. Is his missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? There is a good chance the answer is "no." Is my missing Mass on Sunday a mortal sin? I would undoubtedly say "yes."[/quote]


ok let me ask it like this. Even if I and the Pope commit a mortal sin "x" would you deney that the Pope would have greater culpability?

[dairygirl4u2c]

this debate amongst you guys mostly looks like semantics, not an actual disagreement.

"levels" of hell translates into "pains" of hell, they can mean the same thing.
i don't see anyone disagreeing in substance, that i can see anyway.
my guess is people are just being argumentative and seeing an argument where there is none.

hischild etc are correct that there's no degree of "complete separation" but if there's degree of guilt etc, then there's no difference necessarily about what you guys are arguing.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1801561' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:34 PM']then why is X punished worse than Y? God's whims? to me, it is a combination of either X did something which was worse than Y, or X did something in a worse way than Y did something. but those are both factors, and the exclude the former as a factor is to exclude common sense and logic in a case when the Church has not something contrary to common sense and logic (the way she has regarding the Eucharist, that teaching is contrary to common sense and at common logic, but the Church says so so it is so)[/quote]

But this sounds like you are trying to find a "guilt loophole". Is it reassuring in any way to think "my mortal sin is not as bad as HER mortal sin!"

Mortal sin will get you to Hell, period, no question about it. If there were "varying degrees" of mortal sin then would not a "lesser" mortal sin get you to Purgatory?

[Aloysius]

but what if both people commit mortal sin?

mortal sins [b]are grave sins[/b], actually. the distinction of using the term "mortal" to refer only to sins which actually fit all three criteria is a useful distinction often used to help people understand the difference, but a "mortal sin," when one is not refering to the specific action of a specific person, is simply a sin of grave matter. it is referred to as a "mortal sin" because it can potentially send one to hell, it can potentially kill the soul.

now, I imagine you'll want a source on that or something, though I'd ask for a source which says they're not the same. here's a link of an expert using the terms equivalently:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mortal_versus_venial.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/mortal_versus_venial.htm[/url]

[quote]Hence the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. v), in declaring that all mortal sins must be confessed, makes special mention of those that are most secret and that violate only the last two precepts of the Decalogue, adding that they "sometimes more grievously wound the soul and are more dangerous than sins which are openly committed".[/quote]
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm[/url]
that whole link is very pertinent to this discussion, IMO...

[Hassan]

Let me see if I am correct here, nobody disagrees with the following

-A Mortal sin leads to damnation
-damned souls suffer varying degrees of pain in hell
-these varying degrees are the result of greater guilt

yes?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801574' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:41 PM']ok let me ask it like this. Even if I and the Pope commit a mortal sin "x" would you deney that the Pope would have greater culpability?[/quote]

Yes, I would deny that.

If you both committed a mortal sin that means you BOTH fulfilled the three criteria. It is only a mortal sin if you fit those criteria.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801578' date='Mar 9 2009, 04:42 PM']But this sounds like you are trying to find a "guilt loophole". Is it reassuring in any way to think "my mortal sin is not as bad as HER mortal sin!"

Mortal sin will get you to Hell, period, no question about it. If there were "varying degrees" of mortal sin then would not a "lesser" mortal sin get you to Purgatory?[/quote]
NO... purgatory is a path to heaven. if you have a mortal sin, you go to hell, but are punished to varying degrees. NO mortal sin is EVER a good idea, because hell is horrible for everyone who goes; but it is worse for those who do worse things than it is for those who do not do as bad of things. this is not a loophole, it's simply a fact that those in eternal punishment are punished with different degrees of punishment.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801578' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:42 PM']But this sounds like you are trying to find a "guilt loophole". Is it reassuring in any way to think "my mortal sin is not as bad as HER mortal sin![/quote]

I guess I wouldn't consider a 14 year old falling into mortal sin by getting drunk off alchohol he stole from his parents cabnit on the same plane as hacking up a hooker Bundi picked up.

[dairygirl4u2c]

"There is no such thing as a "lesser" mortal sin. "

or when hischild says this, when i she also said "you can't compare mortal sins cause they are differnt", i don't think there's any disagreement. see, i could read into this an argument that's not there, or put words in her mouth "you just said you can't compare, but njow you say there's no such thing as lesser mortal sins", but i would be missing her point.
again i'd be seeing an argument where htere is none, or misunderstanding.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1801585' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:45 PM']Yes, I would deny that.

If you both committed a mortal sin that means you BOTH fulfilled the three criteria. It is only a mortal sin if you fit those criteria.[/quote]


Then why the different pains of hell for different souls?

[Hassan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1801591' date='Mar 9 2009, 03:47 PM']"There is no such thing as a "lesser" mortal sin. "

or when hischild says this, when i she also said "you can't compare mortal sins cause they are differnt", i don't think there's any disagreement. see, i could read into this an argument that's not there, or put words in her mouth "you just said you can't compare, but njow you say there's no such thing as lesser mortal sins", but i would be missing her point.
again i'd be seeing an argument where htere is none, or misunderstanding.[/quote]


If you are saying the different people here may be saying the same thing in different ways I think that may be correct.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1801596' date='Mar 9 2009, 02:49 PM']If you are saying the different people here may be saying the same thing in different ways I think that may be correct.[/quote]

exactly what i'm saying.
a tragedy is that at least half of all arguments i see don't involve people actually disagreeing, it's people aruging the same thing and not realizing it, or just arguing two sides of the same coin. (in this case, the same thing


[quote]this debate amongst you guys mostly looks like semantics, not an actual disagreement.

"levels" of hell translates into "pains" of hell, they can mean the same thing.
i don't see anyone disagreeing in substance, that i can see anyway.
my guess is people are just being argumentative and seeing an argument where there is none.

hischild etc are correct that there's no degree of "complete separation" but if there's degree of guilt etc, then there's no difference necessarily about what you guys are arguing.[/quote]

Edited March 9, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c