Good Friday Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 [quote][b]Raven writes:[/b] It's like he exists so a good Christian man (or woman) can point a finger and say "The devil made me do it."[/quote] This was the only part of your post I wanted to address. For Catholics, at least, nothing could be further from the truth. Every time we go to Mass, we begin with a Penitential Rite that places the blame for our sins right where it belongs: in our laps. Often, we say this prayer: "I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned [b]through my own fault[/b] [note: the Tridentine Mass states it as "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault"], in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, our God." The emphasis is mine. While the Catholic Church does teach that human beings can be influenced by Satan, she does not teach that Satan forces us to make any choices (except in cases of demonic possession, but even in those cases the victim has opened himself up to possession somehow, usually through occult means). Rather, she teaches that Satan can tempt us to a point, but not so much that he infringes upon our free will. The choice to sin is entirely ours. Nowhere else is this better illustrated than in Genesis 3. Satan does tempt Adam and Eve, but ultimately they make their own decision. So it is with all of us. By the way, welcome back Raven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 [color=purple][b]Ah, Nathan, I'ven't heard from you in a while. I'm just saying those are my personal veiws. I don't beleive in satan. Whether or not "he"'s the tempter or the reasoning behind the "sin" itself, It's in human nature to do both on our own. Satan is a face to blame. I see you've joined the Christian ranks again?[/b][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 John Paul II says that to not believe in Satan, is to not believe in the Gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I think you make the issue far too simple Raven. There are many factors in sin, psychological, emotion, intellectual, etc.. Ultimately sin is in the will and the fact of Satan and the demons does not take away culpability, we have free will. But there certainly are powers of darkness in the world and demonic activity. I struggle with sin constantly and I can't remember the last time I just blamed it all on Satan. Granted there may be people that do this for the reasons you gave, there is far more to the existence of devils than this aspect. People do the same thing with psychology and blame all there sins on there rough childhood, or on other people, but this does not mean that those things are figments of the imagination. There is some truth to it nonetheless, but its not the whole story. Same thing with devils. Has anyone read the "An Exorcist Tells His Story" books? I've heard they are pretty dope. I hope to read them someday. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 When I was a teenager we went to a talk by a priest who was an exorcist.... freaky stuff. I can't remember his name now.... My mom knows it, I'll have to ask her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 [quote]I'm just saying those are my personal veiws. I don't beleive in satan. Whether or not "he"'s the tempter or the reasoning behind the "sin" itself, It's in human nature to do both on our own. Satan is a face to blame. [/quote] So basically you're saying you don't give a hoot what our theology says about Satan, you're going to believe what you will about our position on Satan. That is incredibly insulting and daft at the same time. I'm impressed. To support my translation, I shall offer quotes: GF:[quote]"I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault [note: the Tridentine Mass states it as "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault"], [/quote] That would be the actual Catholic position on who is responsible for a person's sin. Raven:[quote]Satan is a face to blame. [/quote] Which contradicts what the Church teaches Catholics are to believe. So do you have to [i]try[/i] to be that dismissive, or is it a skill you possess. You make it look easy, I must say. [quote]Whether or not "he"'s the tempter or the reasoning behind the "sin" itself, It's in human nature to do both on our own.[/quote] Huh. That's pretty durn Catholic, your view of human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 [quote][b]Raven writes:[/b] Ah, Nathan, I'ven't heard from you in a while.[/quote] I know. I'm sorry. I don't talk on IM much anymore. [quote][b]And she continues:[/b] I'm just saying those are my personal veiws. I don't beleive in satan.[/quote] And that's fine, you're entitled to your beliefs. If you'll notice, I didn't say anything about your belief or disbelief in Satan. All I was doing was clarifying the Catholic position on Satan, that he only influences us, but that we are the ones who make the choice to sin. I was only answering the "devil made me do it" thing, not trying to talk you into belief in Satan. [quote][b]And she says:[/b] Whether or not "he"'s the tempter or the reasoning behind the "sin" itself, It's in human nature to do both on our own.[/quote] Right. Any Catholic would agree with you. We believe that it's now part of being human to be tempted to sin, and to fall to that temptation, because of Original Sin. We don't believe Satan is responsible. We believe that Adam and Eve are responsible for Original Sin, and that we are responsible for our own sins. We only believe that Satan tempts us to sin, but he doesn't make the choice for us. [quote][b]And:[/b] Satan is a face to blame.[/quote] Again, the Church doesn't blame Satan. ". . . through [b]my[/b] fault, through [b]my[/b] fault, through [b]my[/b] most grievous fault." That's part of the Catholic liturgy. The law of prayer is the law of belief. [quote][b]And finally:[/b] I see you've joined the Christian ranks again?[/quote] Yeah. I just can't shake that whole absolute truth thing. But Catholic or not, I'm glad you're back just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Indeed Satan does exist. He is a personal being with a mind, a will, thoughts, and feelings, just like God, the angels, and us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Did God create Hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hananiah Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 The Bible says He prepared Hell for the devil and his angels, so yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 [quote name='Hananiah' date='Mar 25 2004, 01:01 PM'] The Bible says He prepared Hell for the devil and his angels, so yes. [/quote] Detailed info? Where in the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hermit Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='Mar 25 2004, 12:11 PM'] Detailed info? Where in the Bible? [/quote] Hey Lounge Daddy, the closest thing I can find is in Isaiah Ch.14 v 12-23 I looked up the word lucifer in my NAB dictionary concordance and got this... The name of the prince of demons. The name comes from the Latin translation of Isaiah 14 :12which means morning star or day star and is adressed in satire to the King of Babylon. The fathers of the church, however, interpreted it as the description of the defeat of the rebellious angels, the name lucifer being given to the presumed cheif of the rebellion.........verses 22 & 23 being as close as I could come to God creating hell.. In my opinion, and I don't like that word because it usually means I'm going to get cut to ribbons, I would have to say that God created hell simply because he is the creator of all things, but it would have been lucifers denial of God that forced him to do so If anybody can shed more light on this I'd welcome it God Bless...........hermit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Wait, I thought the devil and his angels essentially created hell for themselves and that God had nothing to do with it -- they created it when they chose not to serve God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Maybe God allowed Lucifer to create hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 he probly woulda made it a little nicer if he knew that was gonna be his home forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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