We May Not Agree On Abortion, But Surely We Can Agree...

[dUSt]

The quote:

[size=5][font="Georgia"]"We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country."[/font][/size]

Since being pregnant means that you are actually carrying a baby, isn't the above quote actually saying:

[size=5][font="Georgia"]"We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of [b]unwanted babies[/b] in this country."[/font][/size]


No, Mr President, surely we [b]cannot[/b] all agree on that.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1827820' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:04 PM']The quote:

[size=5][font="Georgia"]"We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country."[/font][/size]

Since being pregnant means that you are actually carrying a baby, isn't the above quote actually saying:

[size=5][font="Georgia"]"We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted babies in this country."[/font][/size]


No, Mr President, surely we [b]cannot[/b] all agree on that. [/quote]


I think he is just saying that he wants to reduce abortions by reducing the conditions of poverty that help facilitate them.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1827823' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:06 PM']I think he is just saying that he wants to reduce abortions by reducing the conditions of poverty that help facilitate them.[/quote]
Being poor makes you have an abortion? Seems like a ridiculous theory.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1827836' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:11 PM']Being poor makes you have an abortion? Seems like a ridiculous theory.[/quote]
I agree

[StColette]

Are there any statistics that show what income level has the most abortions. I would not be surprised at all if more were done by middle and upper class people.

Found the following, not sure how credible it is.

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

[dUSt]

People in poverty don't spend money on abortions, especially since having another child will actually get them more money through government assistance. Poverty = abortions is a made up theory that I would be surprised had any basis in reality.

[dUSt]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827840' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:14 PM']Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.[/quote]
So the majority of all abortions are from the middle class. Not surprising. And, I think these numbers are somewhat misleading because I think if you broke it down to who is having the most abortions per pregnancies, the people in "poverty" would be a very small percentage--as far as abortion to pregnancy ratio goes.

So, as for the theory that reducing poverty will reduce abortions, according to the stats, the opposite would be true. Reducing poverty would [b]increase[/b] abortions.

Reducing sex would reduce abortions. Oh, and making abortion illegal would reduce abortions too. What a novel idea.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1827823' date='Apr 7 2009, 02:06 PM']I think he is just saying that he wants to reduce abortions by reducing the conditions of poverty that help facilitate them.[/quote]
Sadly, his present economic policies, which involve the printing of trillions of dollars, will exacerbate the conditions of poverty in the United States by causing a massive inflationary cycle.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Sojourner]

The correlation between abortion and poverty actually goes back to Margaret Sanger (and maybe others). She has been well-documented in her support of abortion as a means of cutting back on the number of people in poverty, particularly ethnic and racial minorities.

Mr. Obama doesn't seem to be directly referencing poverty here, though, but rather "unwanted" babies, at whatever socio-economic level they come. His statement betrays the underlying story he's bought into, that there are all these unwanted babies who, if we let them live, would be doomed to lives of unspeakable horror. They might have only one pair of shoes! Oh, the humanity!

[philothea]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827840' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:14 PM']Are there any statistics that show what income level has the most abortions. I would not be surprised at all if more were done by middle and upper class people.

Found the following, not sure how credible it is.

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.[/quote]

Sounds about right from what I know.

The compiled data I read (I think flip linked to it a while back) which tracked income vs. abortion rates, showed that yes, poor women -- or, at least women who felt they could not meet an additional financial burden -- had the most abortions. And, moreover, when there was better support for poor mothers (welfare, housing, medical assistance, etc.) the numbers of abortions were reduced.

Edited April 7, 2009 by philothea

[Aloysius]

Advocatus Diaboli (ie Advocatus Obamaboli): the intention is almost trying to be something along the lines of "make the unwanted babies into wanted babies"

Advocatus Dei: of course, he probably includes contraceptives as a way to reduce "unwanted pregnancies" ie "unwanted babies", which we certainly cannot agree upon. Mr. President (if you weren't born in Kenya ), we would want to agree with you to make all babies into wanted babies, all pregnancies into wanted pregnancies; but not by reducing pregnancies and reducing babies but by making the existing ones wanted.

[Jesus_lol]

umm, its the poor uneducated people who have more of the unplanned pregnancies, more of the financial issues and all that.
kinda fighting over semantics here. he is aiming to reduce unplanned pregnancies. which can be done by having less sex, and using birth control.

and im pretty sure that the extra money welfare gives you for children is not enough to take care of them, much less have any left over.

[StColette]

[quote name='philothea' post='1827864' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:33 PM']Sounds about right from what I know.

The compiled data I read (I think flip linked to it a while back) which tracked income vs. abortion rates, showed that yes, poor women -- or, at least women who felt they could not meet an additional financial burden -- had the most abortions. And, moreover, when there was better support for poor mothers (welfare, housing, medical assistance, etc.) the numbers of abortions were reduced.[/quote]

Well according to the date I found it seems more middle class/upper class women when combined have more.

[philothea]

Here's the document: [url="http://www.catholicsinalliance.org/files/CACG_Final.pdf"]Reducing Abortion in America: The Effect of Socioeconomic Factors[/url] by Catholics in Alliance.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1827867' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:35 PM']umm, its the poor uneducated people who have more of the unplanned pregnancies, more of the financial issues and all that.
kinda fighting over semantics here. he is aiming to reduce unplanned pregnancies. which can be done by having less sex, and using birth control.

and im pretty sure that the extra money welfare gives you for children is not enough to take care of them, much less have any left over.[/quote]
Actually birth control is one of the reasons we have abortions. It's a "necessary" backup to failed birth control. When we allowed birth control, we had to allow abortion, as a public policy.

[Aloysius]

Let me edit the statistics to make the point clearer (all I'm doing is simple addition)

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 48.2% of all abortions
Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $60,000 obtain 51.8%

already we see it is almost equal, but 3% more of women that are in well-off income rangers have abortions.

but let's try it another way:
Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions.
Women with family incomes above $15,000 obtain 71.3% of all abortions.

Now, in most areas a $20,000 annual salary will be be sufficient, especially in addition to the financial aid received, to raise some children. It is very likely that a large portion of that 71.3% are $20,000 and above, but there are no statistics to analyze that way... but what it shows is that people in true abject poverty, ie below $15,000 per year, only account for around 30% of abortions.

[philothea]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827870' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:37 PM']Well according to the date I found it seems more middle class/upper class women when combined have more.[/quote]
What do you consider to be middle class?

I'd say $60-100k household income is "middle class."

For reference:

[url="http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/08poverty.shtml"]2008 HHS Poverty Guidelines[/url]
Persons
in Family or Household 48 Contiguous
States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii
1 $10,400 $13,000 $11,960
2 14,000 17,500 16,100
3 17,600 22,000 20,240
4 21,200 26,500 24,380
5 24,800 31,000 28,520
6 28,400 35,500 32,660
7 32,000 40,000 36,800
8 35,600 44,500 40,940
For each additional
person, add 3,600 4,500 4,140

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1827867' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:35 PM']umm, its the poor uneducated people who have more of the unplanned pregnancies, more of the financial issues and all that.
kinda fighting over semantics here. he is aiming to reduce unplanned pregnancies. which can be done by having less sex, and using birth control.

and im pretty sure that the extra money welfare gives you for children is not enough to take care of them, much less have any left over.[/quote]

No, he said he wanted to reduce "unwanted" pregnancies. He did not say "unplanned."

Many, many, many married couples have had unplanned pregnancies. Many, many single women have as well. The difference is people have decided to become sexually active also accept that there are responsibilities that go hand in hand with it.

Unplanned does not equal unwanted. People should only have sex when they are willing to accept (ie "want") a pregnancy. Then there would be no such thing as an "unwelcome" or "unwanted" pregnancy. Problem solved.

[Apotheoun]

Such statistical averages are really quite pointless.

For a single person living in the S.F. Bay Area the poverty line is around $28,000.00 a year.

[StColette]

[quote name='philothea' post='1827884' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:48 PM']What do you consider to be middle class?

I'd say $60-100k household income is "middle class."[/quote]

I would not put it as high as 60k. I would put it more so around 25k to 30k on the low end and around 90 something on the high end. But like Todd pointed out it depends on where you live.

According to a study done in 2007 only 6% of the US population made more than 97k