We May Not Agree On Abortion, But Surely We Can Agree...

[rkwright]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1828082' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:02 PM']I've heard a bunch of times that the number of abortions would increase (or stay the same) if abortion was criminalized. But is there any data to back that up?[/quote]

My take on that... who cares? I also hear that abortions will become botched killing the mother also (the coat hanger scenario)

But look... we don't say to people if you want to murder someone, we're going to provide a safe secure sterile location to do it. Murder is wrong and needs to be outlawed. I don't buy into the utilitarian thinking on criminal legal issues.

[Aloysius]

"Murder isn't bad because it's illegal, it's illegal because it's bad."
come on now, you KNOW abortion = murder in our opinion. [b]=[/b]... it's not abortion is LIKE murder, it's abortion IS murder. every law applicable to murder should be applicable to abortion. it's not an analogy to us, dude.
Abortion shouldn't be bad because it's illegal, it should be illegal because it's bad.

[rkwright]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1828083' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:02 PM']I'd be willing to bet that the reason why most people don't murder others isn't because it's illegal. The fact that thousands of murders happen regardless of the law stands testament to this. Murder isn't bad because it's illegal, it's illegal because it's bad. The law isn't preventing anyone from murdering someone else, it's just making consequence to doing it (for those who are disturbed enough to do it.) That's why the murder laws analogy to abortion just doesn't fit.[/quote]

No they make it perfectly!

Abortion doesn't become bad because its illegal, it should be illegal because its bad.

You're exactly right, people murder anyways; it doesn't mean we should make it legal. Abortions will happen regardless of illegality, but it doesn't mean it should be legal.

Edt: Al and I are having an ESP moment... I feel honored

Edited April 8, 2009 by rkwright

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828097' date='Apr 7 2009, 06:06 PM']No they make it perfectly!

Abortion doesn't become bad because its illegal, it should be illegal because its bad.

You're exactly right, people murder anyways; it doesn't mean we should make it legal. Abortions will happen regardless of illegality, but it doesn't mean it should be legal.[/quote]
I didn't say we should make murder legal. However, it's illegality plays little role in preventing murders.

To tell you the truth, I do believe abortions would go down if it were made illegal, but only because no one would be providing, not because people saw it as bad. That's not the same as murder. People would not murder others, even if they could get away with it legally.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1828103' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:11 PM']I didn't say we should make murder legal. However, it's illegality plays little role in preventing murders.

To tell you the truth, I do believe abortions would go down if it were made illegal, but only because no one would be providing, not because people saw it as bad. That's not the same as murder. People would not murder others, even if they could get away with it legally.[/quote]

I agree that some will always believe abortions to be okay....just making something illegal or legal only changes x number of minds about it.

I dunno about the rest of what you say though. I mean, when you kill someone, you have to get rid of the body, and you hope no one sees you etc etc etc.

I mean, how many opportunities in your life have you had an opportunity to murder someone with absolutely no chance of getting caught?

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[rkwright]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1828103' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:11 PM']I didn't say we should make murder legal. However, it's illegality plays little role in preventing murders.

To tell you the truth, I do believe abortions would go down if it were made illegal, but only because no one would be providing, not because people saw it as bad. That's not the same as murder. People would not murder others, even if they could get away with it legally.[/quote]

Sure its possible... I'm sure there are plenty of very hateful people that would have no problem killing others. Lynch mobs seem to prove this... A group of white men could murder someone knowing full well there would be no repercussions for their actions. Thats a whole different issue...

The point is really in you're first sentence. The illegality of abortion may or may not prevent abortions; its not important. If abortion is murder, then like you said the role in preventing has little to do with the real issue. If abortion is murder it should be illegal on its face.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828117' date='Apr 7 2009, 06:22 PM']Sure its possible... I'm sure there are plenty of very hateful people that would have no problem killing others. Lynch mobs seem to prove this... A group of white men could murder someone knowing full well there would be no repercussions for their actions. Thats a whole different issue...

The point is really in you're first sentence. The illegality of abortion may or may not prevent abortions; its not important. If abortion is murder, then like you said the role in preventing has little to do with the real issue. If abortion is murder it should be illegal on its face.[/quote]
"If" being the key word. I agree with your conclusion based on your beliefs. However, the argument isn't about the conclusion, it's about the "if."

[Jaime]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1828082' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:02 PM']I've heard a bunch of times that the number of abortions would increase (or stay the same) if abortion was criminalized. But is there any data to back that up?[/quote]

I' ve heard that as well. But I always ask "Really? How many doctors would need to risk their licenses and jailtime to achieve 1.3 million abortions annuallY?"

[CatherineM]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1828175' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:04 PM']I' ve heard that as well. But I always ask "Really? How many doctors would need to risk their licenses and jailtime to achieve 1.3 million abortions annuallY?"[/quote]

Not many doctors risk doing them now. It wasn't so long ago that they were going shot at and bombed. Add jail time on top, and it would go back to being med students trying to pay off school loans and foreign doctors and midwives. I think the number will go down simply because the cost will go up.

[Winchester]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1828103' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:11 PM']People would not murder others, even if they could get away with it legally.[/quote]
Yes they would.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1828279' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:16 PM']Yes they would.[/quote]
Sane and healthy people wouldn't. Of course, most murders committed now aren't done by sane and healthy people.

[dUSt]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1828297' date='Apr 7 2009, 10:24 PM']Sane and healthy people wouldn't. Of course, most murders committed now aren't done by sane and healthy people.[/quote]
You obviously don't live near the Texas/Mexican border.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1828297' date='Apr 7 2009, 09:24 PM']Sane and healthy people wouldn't. Of course, most murders committed now aren't done by sane and healthy people.[/quote]
Actually, people who murder are found mentally competent all the time. If they weren't, they'd be unable to stand trial. Anyone can commit murder, given the right set of personal and contextual circumstances.

[Winchester]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1828297' date='Apr 7 2009, 10:24 PM']Sane and healthy people wouldn't. Of course, most murders committed now aren't done by sane and healthy people.[/quote]
So you don't think there's a person out there, criminal or otherwise, who has avoided murder due to the penalties. Some people avoid robbery because of the increased penalties and the chance of killing someone, thus being charged with murder.

Apart from murder, you don't think people are deterred from killing because they might be charged with murder?

Are you of the school of thought that evil is a form of insanity?

Edited April 8, 2009 by Winchester

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1828839' date='Apr 8 2009, 10:06 AM']So you don't think there's a person out there, criminal or otherwise, who has avoided murder due to the penalties. Some people avoid robbery because of the increased penalties and the chance of killing someone, thus being charged with murder.

Apart from murder, you don't think people are deterred from killing because they might be charged with murder?

Are you of the school of thought that evil is a form of insanity?[/quote]
I'm of the thinking that it is not in human nature to murder other humans, and is thus unnatural and abnormal to murder. It's not all that different from the Catholic view of the sinful nature of killing and it being against natural law.