We May Not Agree On Abortion, But Surely We Can Agree...

[Aloysius]

Apo is right to mention that this varies WIDELY across the country... 28,000 is poverty in SF but might be middle class in many places... it'd be rich in the third world (and maybe in some small areas of the US even)

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1827887' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:52 PM']No, he said he wanted to reduce "unwanted" pregnancies. He did not say "unplanned."

Many, many, many married couples have had unplanned pregnancies. Many, many single women have as well. The difference is that if people who have decided to become sexually active would also accept that there are responsibilities that go hand in hand with it.

Unplanned does not equal unwanted. People should only have sex when they are willing to accept (ie "want") a pregnancy. Then there would be no such thing as an "unwelcome" or "unwanted" pregnancy. Problem solved.[/quote]
This is totally true. Our pregnancy was not planned, but was most definitely wanted.

I took a class on JP2's "Love and Responsibility" last year, and I really loved the idea of "conscious parenthood" that he espouses. It's the idea that people, when they enter the conjugal relationship, should be conscious not only of the possibility of pregnancy but also of the possibility of engaging in parenting with their partner (who is hopefully their spouse). People rarely think this far ahead, though.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Poverty drives people to take actions they normally would not. when the some poor women get pregnant, some choose abortion because of their financial situation. They feel like they simply can not afford to raise that child. It doesn't matter if this represents the majority of abortion cases or not. If poverty was reduced, less people would feel like they "have to" abort their children because of financial desperation.

(I am not condoning abortion, I'm just saying that material conditions do influence people's actions)

[CatherineM]

How about looking at the other side of the coin, who's having babies? It isn't the upper class elite types. Aren't multi-child families usually from lower classes, new immigrants?

[StColette]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1827887' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:52 PM']No, he said he wanted to reduce "unwanted" pregnancies. He did not say "unplanned."

Many, many, many married couples have had unplanned pregnancies. Many, many single women have as well. The difference is people have decided to become sexually active also accept that there are responsibilities that go hand in hand with it.

Unplanned does not equal unwanted. People should only have sex when they are willing to accept (ie "want") a pregnancy. Then there would be no such thing as an "unwelcome" or "unwanted" pregnancy. Problem solved.[/quote]

I agree 100%. We didn't plan for Aaron, but he was definitely wanted! We were scared but that doesn't mean we wanted to get rid of him.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1827897' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:58 PM']Poverty drives people to take actions they normally would not. when the some poor women get pregnant, some choose abortion because of their financial situation. They feel like they simply can not afford to raise that child. It doesn't matter if this represents the majority of abortion cases or not. If poverty was reduced, less people would feel like they "have to" abort their children because of financial desperation.

(I am not condoning abortion, I'm just saying that material conditions do influence people's actions)[/quote]
Middle-class (and upper-class) folks make this decision for financial reasons as well. One woman I knew decided to abort because having a baby would ruin her career options. That's a financial situation decision. Her situation is not unique.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1827899' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:58 PM']How about looking at the other side of the coin, who's having babies? It isn't the upper class elite types. Aren't multi-child families usually from lower classes, new immigrants?[/quote]
I don't have any stats to back me up, but I believe this is true. In fact, if I recall correctly, the reason the U.S. is not facing a declining birth rate, like most of Europe, is because we have so many immigrants with very large families.

[Jaime]

the breakdown is much more interesting by race. While statistically white women have more abortions, african american have 3 times more abortions per capita.

Planned Parenthood has far more clinics in african american neighborhoods.

[StColette]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1827897' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:58 PM']Poverty drives people to take actions they normally would not. when the some poor women get pregnant, some choose abortion because of their financial situation. They feel like they simply can not afford to raise that child. It doesn't matter if this represents the majority of abortion cases or not. If poverty was reduced, less people would feel like they "have to" abort their children because of financial desperation.

(I am not condoning abortion, I'm just saying that material conditions do influence people's actions)[/quote]

This is where education about options is important. Women in these situations can elect to adopt and even have open adoption where they can see their child often. They can also have free medical care from doctors. But nooooo, this is so easily hidden and kept from them. These women aren't stupid. They can handle the truth and the facts, just tell them! You know why they don't tell them, because they know if they do that the majority of women would walk right out of there!

[Apotheoun]

Christ said "You will always have the poor with you," (i.e., until the Kingdom of God is made fully manifest), but the fact that one is poor does not mean that he is no longer bound by the moral law.

I am poor, but I will not steal from others because of my situation, nor will I murder someone for financial gain.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1827897' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:58 PM']Poverty drives people to take actions they normally would not. when the some poor women get pregnant, some choose abortion because of their financial situation. They feel like they simply can not afford to raise that child. It doesn't matter if this represents the majority of abortion cases or not. If poverty was reduced, less people would feel like they "have to" abort their children because of financial desperation.

(I am not condoning abortion, I'm just saying that material conditions do influence people's actions)[/quote]
this is true and not to be overlooked. one of the four sins which cry to heaven for vengeance is injustice against the poor (I feel like most people only cite that four sin thing against homosexuality)... and while their situation does not excuse their murder of their baby (which is another of the four sins which cry to heaven for vengeance: deliberate murder), poverty ought to be fought against and there would be some degree of reduction in abortions were poverty no longer an issue.

if one understands that economic reasons justify NFP to avoid having children, one can see why those who favor birth control and abortion might see economic reasons as a cause of those things to; the same motivation exists, except one response is moral (NFP) and the other is grossly immoral (contraception or abortion)

[CatherineM]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1827904' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:02 PM']the breakdown is much more interesting by race. While statistically white women have more abortions, african american have 3 times more abortions per capita.

Planned Parenthood has far more clinics in african american neighborhoods.[/quote]

Are more done in those neighborhoods because of easier availability, targeted marketing, less use of or access to contraception, or poverty?

[Jaime]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1827946' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:27 PM']Are more done in those neighborhoods because of easier availability, targeted marketing, less use of or access to contraception, or poverty?[/quote]

Depends on who you ask. There are quotes of Margaret Sanger that are racist. The more I read about it the more it seems like Planned Parenthood is an organization that wants to eliminate african americans off the planet.

What's amazing is that the number one killer of African Americans is abortion. More blacks are killed each year by choice than by any disease.

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827840' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:14 PM']Are there any statistics that show what income level has the most abortions. I would not be surprised at all if more were done by middle and upper class people.

Found the following, not sure how credible it is.

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.[/quote]

Reason being of course they don't want to lose face or social standing or their current lifestyle. I imagine it'd be hard to find statistics on abortions and the women who have had them because abortion clinics don't keep very good records.

[rkwright]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1827899' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:58 PM']How about looking at the other side of the coin, who's having babies? It isn't the upper class elite types. Aren't multi-child families usually from lower classes, new immigrants?[/quote]

Availability of birth control? I think thats a leading factor. I mean the alternative is that rich people have less sex than poor people... but I doubt thats right...

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1827852' date='Apr 7 2009, 02:25 PM']So the majority of all abortions are from the middle class. Not surprising. And, I think these numbers are somewhat misleading because I think if you broke it down to who is having the most abortions per pregnancies, the people in "poverty" would be a very small percentage--as far as abortion to pregnancy ratio goes.

So, as for the theory that reducing poverty will reduce abortions, according to the stats, the opposite would be true. Reducing poverty would [b]increase[/b] abortions.

Reducing sex would reduce abortions. Oh, and making abortion illegal would reduce abortions too. What a novel idea.[/quote]
Yes, just like the prohibition reduced drinking.

[rkwright]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1828068' date='Apr 7 2009, 06:41 PM']Yes, just like the prohibition reduced drinking.[/quote]
We should abandon our laws against murder too, because people still murder ya know...

[dUSt]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1828068' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:41 PM']Yes, just like the prohibition reduced drinking.[/quote]
I personally never had one drink during the prohibition.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1828071' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:51 PM']I personally never had one drink during the prohibition.[/quote]
I've never personally had an abortion.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I've heard a bunch of times that the number of abortions would increase (or stay the same) if abortion was criminalized. But is there any data to back that up?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828069' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:43 PM']We should abandon our laws against murder too, because people still murder ya know...[/quote]
I'd be willing to bet that the reason why most people don't murder others isn't because it's illegal. The fact that thousands of murders happen regardless of the law stands testament to this. Murder isn't bad because it's illegal, it's illegal because it's bad. The law isn't preventing anyone from murdering someone else, it's just making consequence to doing it (for those who are disturbed enough to do it.) That's why the murder laws analogy to abortion just doesn't fit.