We May Not Agree On Abortion, But Surely We Can Agree...

[Aloysius]

Let me edit the statistics to make the point clearer (all I'm doing is simple addition)

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 48.2% of all abortions
Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $60,000 obtain 51.8%

already we see it is almost equal, but 3% more of women that are in well-off income rangers have abortions.

but let's try it another way:
Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions.
Women with family incomes above $15,000 obtain 71.3% of all abortions.

Now, in most areas a $20,000 annual salary will be be sufficient, especially in addition to the financial aid received, to raise some children. It is very likely that a large portion of that 71.3% are $20,000 and above, but there are no statistics to analyze that way... but what it shows is that people in true abject poverty, ie below $15,000 per year, only account for around 30% of abortions.

[philothea]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827870' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:37 PM']Well according to the date I found it seems more middle class/upper class women when combined have more.[/quote]
What do you consider to be middle class?

I'd say $60-100k household income is "middle class."

For reference:

[url="http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/08poverty.shtml"]2008 HHS Poverty Guidelines[/url]
Persons
in Family or Household 48 Contiguous
States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii
1 $10,400 $13,000 $11,960
2 14,000 17,500 16,100
3 17,600 22,000 20,240
4 21,200 26,500 24,380
5 24,800 31,000 28,520
6 28,400 35,500 32,660
7 32,000 40,000 36,800
8 35,600 44,500 40,940
For each additional
person, add 3,600 4,500 4,140

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1827867' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:35 PM']umm, its the poor uneducated people who have more of the unplanned pregnancies, more of the financial issues and all that.
kinda fighting over semantics here. he is aiming to reduce unplanned pregnancies. which can be done by having less sex, and using birth control.

and im pretty sure that the extra money welfare gives you for children is not enough to take care of them, much less have any left over.[/quote]

No, he said he wanted to reduce "unwanted" pregnancies. He did not say "unplanned."

Many, many, many married couples have had unplanned pregnancies. Many, many single women have as well. The difference is people have decided to become sexually active also accept that there are responsibilities that go hand in hand with it.

Unplanned does not equal unwanted. People should only have sex when they are willing to accept (ie "want") a pregnancy. Then there would be no such thing as an "unwelcome" or "unwanted" pregnancy. Problem solved.

[Apotheoun]

Such statistical averages are really quite pointless.

For a single person living in the S.F. Bay Area the poverty line is around $28,000.00 a year.

[StColette]

[quote name='philothea' post='1827884' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:48 PM']What do you consider to be middle class?

I'd say $60-100k household income is "middle class."[/quote]

I would not put it as high as 60k. I would put it more so around 25k to 30k on the low end and around 90 something on the high end. But like Todd pointed out it depends on where you live.

According to a study done in 2007 only 6% of the US population made more than 97k

[Aloysius]

Apo is right to mention that this varies WIDELY across the country... 28,000 is poverty in SF but might be middle class in many places... it'd be rich in the third world (and maybe in some small areas of the US even)

[Sojourner]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1827887' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:52 PM']No, he said he wanted to reduce "unwanted" pregnancies. He did not say "unplanned."

Many, many, many married couples have had unplanned pregnancies. Many, many single women have as well. The difference is that if people who have decided to become sexually active would also accept that there are responsibilities that go hand in hand with it.

Unplanned does not equal unwanted. People should only have sex when they are willing to accept (ie "want") a pregnancy. Then there would be no such thing as an "unwelcome" or "unwanted" pregnancy. Problem solved.[/quote]
This is totally true. Our pregnancy was not planned, but was most definitely wanted.

I took a class on JP2's "Love and Responsibility" last year, and I really loved the idea of "conscious parenthood" that he espouses. It's the idea that people, when they enter the conjugal relationship, should be conscious not only of the possibility of pregnancy but also of the possibility of engaging in parenting with their partner (who is hopefully their spouse). People rarely think this far ahead, though.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Poverty drives people to take actions they normally would not. when the some poor women get pregnant, some choose abortion because of their financial situation. They feel like they simply can not afford to raise that child. It doesn't matter if this represents the majority of abortion cases or not. If poverty was reduced, less people would feel like they "have to" abort their children because of financial desperation.

(I am not condoning abortion, I'm just saying that material conditions do influence people's actions)

[CatherineM]

How about looking at the other side of the coin, who's having babies? It isn't the upper class elite types. Aren't multi-child families usually from lower classes, new immigrants?

[StColette]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1827887' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:52 PM']No, he said he wanted to reduce "unwanted" pregnancies. He did not say "unplanned."

Many, many, many married couples have had unplanned pregnancies. Many, many single women have as well. The difference is people have decided to become sexually active also accept that there are responsibilities that go hand in hand with it.

Unplanned does not equal unwanted. People should only have sex when they are willing to accept (ie "want") a pregnancy. Then there would be no such thing as an "unwelcome" or "unwanted" pregnancy. Problem solved.[/quote]

I agree 100%. We didn't plan for Aaron, but he was definitely wanted! We were scared but that doesn't mean we wanted to get rid of him.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1827897' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:58 PM']Poverty drives people to take actions they normally would not. when the some poor women get pregnant, some choose abortion because of their financial situation. They feel like they simply can not afford to raise that child. It doesn't matter if this represents the majority of abortion cases or not. If poverty was reduced, less people would feel like they "have to" abort their children because of financial desperation.

(I am not condoning abortion, I'm just saying that material conditions do influence people's actions)[/quote]
Middle-class (and upper-class) folks make this decision for financial reasons as well. One woman I knew decided to abort because having a baby would ruin her career options. That's a financial situation decision. Her situation is not unique.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1827899' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:58 PM']How about looking at the other side of the coin, who's having babies? It isn't the upper class elite types. Aren't multi-child families usually from lower classes, new immigrants?[/quote]
I don't have any stats to back me up, but I believe this is true. In fact, if I recall correctly, the reason the U.S. is not facing a declining birth rate, like most of Europe, is because we have so many immigrants with very large families.

[Jaime]

the breakdown is much more interesting by race. While statistically white women have more abortions, african american have 3 times more abortions per capita.

Planned Parenthood has far more clinics in african american neighborhoods.

[StColette]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1827897' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:58 PM']Poverty drives people to take actions they normally would not. when the some poor women get pregnant, some choose abortion because of their financial situation. They feel like they simply can not afford to raise that child. It doesn't matter if this represents the majority of abortion cases or not. If poverty was reduced, less people would feel like they "have to" abort their children because of financial desperation.

(I am not condoning abortion, I'm just saying that material conditions do influence people's actions)[/quote]

This is where education about options is important. Women in these situations can elect to adopt and even have open adoption where they can see their child often. They can also have free medical care from doctors. But nooooo, this is so easily hidden and kept from them. These women aren't stupid. They can handle the truth and the facts, just tell them! You know why they don't tell them, because they know if they do that the majority of women would walk right out of there!

[Apotheoun]

Christ said "You will always have the poor with you," (i.e., until the Kingdom of God is made fully manifest), but the fact that one is poor does not mean that he is no longer bound by the moral law.

I am poor, but I will not steal from others because of my situation, nor will I murder someone for financial gain.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1827897' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:58 PM']Poverty drives people to take actions they normally would not. when the some poor women get pregnant, some choose abortion because of their financial situation. They feel like they simply can not afford to raise that child. It doesn't matter if this represents the majority of abortion cases or not. If poverty was reduced, less people would feel like they "have to" abort their children because of financial desperation.

(I am not condoning abortion, I'm just saying that material conditions do influence people's actions)[/quote]
this is true and not to be overlooked. one of the four sins which cry to heaven for vengeance is injustice against the poor (I feel like most people only cite that four sin thing against homosexuality)... and while their situation does not excuse their murder of their baby (which is another of the four sins which cry to heaven for vengeance: deliberate murder), poverty ought to be fought against and there would be some degree of reduction in abortions were poverty no longer an issue.

if one understands that economic reasons justify NFP to avoid having children, one can see why those who favor birth control and abortion might see economic reasons as a cause of those things to; the same motivation exists, except one response is moral (NFP) and the other is grossly immoral (contraception or abortion)