Music At Mass

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1888790' date='Jun 11 2009, 11:33 PM']As a member of the choir at my own church, I think that orchestral pieces do have a place there, as do electric guitars and drum sets! God gave us musical talent in order to worship him more fully.

Also, I believe that when you sing, you are praying twice. As long as the musical instruments are accompanied by voices, the mass only increases in beauty. [/quote]
That's great. God gave people the ability to play and nurture musicality. But there's a time and place for rockin' out, and there's a time and place for prayin' it out. Documents state there are certain aspects which make music sacred. Intent is one thing, but it's not the only thing. The music isn't about stimulating or entertaining. Talent isn't worship. The music is supposed to directly serve the text. That is why the Eastern Churches don't have instruments. The voices are most competent in serving the liturgical texts, thus serving the prayer.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1888882' date='Jun 12 2009, 12:47 AM']That's great. God gave people the ability to play and nurture musicality. But there's a time and place for rockin' out, and there's a time and place for prayin' it out. Documents state there are certain aspects which make music sacred. Intent is one thing, but it's not the only thing. The music isn't about stimulating or entertaining. Talent isn't worship. The music is supposed to directly serve the text. That is why the Eastern Churches don't have instruments. The voices are most competent in serving the liturgical texts, thus serving the prayer.[/quote]


I agree. And just to add to this: The reason that it is such an issue is because the Mass is itself Heaven on earth. It soooo sacred that anything associated with it needs to be sacred.

The reason that some music is considered more sacre than others is the extent to which it adheres to that which is sacred. (I think i am wording that weird, but here, see): When chant developed, it developed from the words of the Mass. It wasn't like music is today: the music did not come first. The music wasn't for embellishment or [i]anything other than the word of the Mass[/i] It was so intertwined to the liturgy that the Church calls it "integral".

When you get to drum and guitars, you have music based on things that are far removed from that which is holy.

There are modern compositions which can be labeled "sacred" music and there are those that cannot be. Those that cannot be have come too far from the sacredness of the liturgy itself. Those that do, keep in mind the inherent Sanctity and purpose of music at Mass.

Edited June 12, 2009 by missionseeker

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1888882' date='Jun 12 2009, 01:47 AM']That is why the Eastern Churches don't have instruments. The voices are most competent in serving the liturgical texts, thus serving the prayer.[/quote]

It isn't just the Eastern Churches that don't use instruments. Ideally, chant in the Roman Rite should be unaccompanied as well.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1888887' date='Jun 12 2009, 01:03 AM']It isn't just the Eastern Churches that don't use instruments. Ideally, chant in the Roman Rite should be unaccompanied as well.[/quote]


Well yes. But the Roman Church *allows* instruments, whereas the Eastern Churches do not which is what he was getting at.

[Apotheoun]

The use of musical instruments of any kind during the divine liturgy is forbidden in the Eastern Churches, but I suppose that the Latin Church can do what it wants during its liturgy.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1888871' date='Jun 12 2009, 08:18 AM']Could you expand further what you mean? What do you have in mind? I think it sounds like an interesting idea. I wouldn't want it to become un-organic... or like the two parties are "taking turns"[/quote]

What is done here quite regularly is a Gregorian Gloria after an orchestral Kyrie, mainly to save time (I don't believe the conductor is much into congregational participation, although the effect that this is heightened remains, of course).

Another example is a chanted Agnus Dei, with the orchestral setting being sung during Communion.

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1888882' date='Jun 12 2009, 08:47 AM']That's great. God gave people the ability to play and nurture musicality. But there's a time and place for rockin' out, and there's a time and place for prayin' it out. Documents state there are certain aspects which make music sacred. Intent is one thing, but it's not the only thing. The music isn't about stimulating or entertaining. Talent isn't worship. The music is supposed to directly serve the text. That is why the Eastern Churches don't have instruments. The voices are most competent in serving the liturgical texts, thus serving the prayer.[/quote]

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. And yes.

I am possibly going to have this tattooed on one of my limbs for quick future reference.

[AngelofMusic]

But the youth of today are not the same people who were around back when they only had Gregorian chants! I personally love chants and listen to that in my car whilst driving rather than the nonsense they play on the radio. While maybe some people only want that, the newer music is to draw in the disenfranchised youth of now.

They are drawn in by what they think is similar to the stuff they listen to, but then we hook them with the message and doctrine of the Catholic church. We have a youth mass in my parish that most of the youth come to; they have told me that they would not come to mass if not for this. They do not like the traditional chanting or songs they do at the other two masses. The Catholic church is supposed to cross all barriers; why not music as well?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1889377' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:14 PM']But the youth of today are not the same people who were around back when they only had Gregorian chants! I personally love chants and listen to that in my car whilst driving rather than the nonsense they play on the radio. While maybe some people only want that, the newer music is to draw in the disenfranchised youth of now.

They are drawn in by what they think is similar to the stuff they listen to, but then we hook them with the message and doctrine of the Catholic church. We have a youth mass in my parish that most of the youth come to; they have told me that they would not come to mass if not for this. They do not like the traditional chanting or songs they do at the other two masses. The Catholic church is supposed to cross all barriers; why not music as well?[/quote]
Christ is the only relevant answer, not the music. Feeding them junk food does not lead to them eating brusselsprouts. Our job is to serve the truth. We are made to hear the truth and love it, cause God alone is truth. Nothing that is of God is untruthful. There is no argument. The ECFs and the Church documents "(of the West) give guidlines for what is sacred and what is not. I understand your desire to bring young people to the Church. I'm with a youth ministry team in my diocese.

[AngelofMusic]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1889449' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:39 PM']Christ is the only relevant answer, not the music. Feeding them junk food does not lead to them eating brusselsprouts. Our job is to serve the truth. We are made to hear the truth and love it, cause God alone is truth. Nothing that is of God is untruthful. There is no argument. The ECFs and the Church documents "(of the West) give guidlines for what is sacred and what is not. I understand your desire to bring young people to the Church. I'm with a youth ministry team in my diocese.[/quote]

Palates change. The junk food and brussell sprout example may be true yes... but all children may not like something when they are young and grow up to like it. You have to try something 3 times before you are supposed to have a final say on your approval or disapproval. If the children of today aren't lured in by something, they won't try it at all.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1889377' date='Jun 12 2009, 10:14 PM']But the youth of today are not the same people who were around back when they only had Gregorian chants! I personally love chants and listen to that in my car whilst driving rather than the nonsense they play on the radio. While maybe some people only want that, the newer music is to draw in the disenfranchised youth of now.

They are drawn in by what they think is similar to the stuff they listen to, but then we hook them with the message and doctrine of the Catholic church. [b]We have a youth mass in my parish that most of the youth come to; they have told me that they would not come to mass if not for this.[/b] They do not like the traditional chanting or songs they do at the other two masses. The Catholic church is supposed to cross all barriers; why not music as well?[/quote]
The problem is bolded.
The problem with the kids is they don't understand what the Mass is. It's not something to be entertained by - it's the summation and pinnacle of our Catholic Faith. It contains the Eucharist...the EUCHARIST! The stuff that Jesus said that unless you ate and drank, you have no life in you.
Giving them "fun", "popular", "hip" music is only addressing the symptoms not the problem. Until they understand that mass is about more than how cool it is to them, you could have the Ringling brothers come in, but eventually, they'll get tired of it.
The Church doesn't cross all barriers by changing Herself and becoming different things to others. The Church crosses every barrier because of the Message She brings to the world.
Let me also say that if you want to have all of this popular-style type stuff at youth group, that's fine by me. Have a Reliant K or whatever the popular music is festival, go to their concert. That's great if that's what one is into. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, though, should be a setting of utmost respect and reverence, and by dragging things as profane as guitar, or especially drums, into it destroys this environment.

Edited June 14, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[AngelofMusic]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1889875' date='Jun 13 2009, 07:19 PM']The problem is bolded.
The problem with the kids is they don't understand what the Mass is. It's not something to be entertained by - it's the summation and pinnacle of our Catholic Faith. It contains the Eucharist...the EUCHARIST! The stuff that Jesus said that unless you ate and drank, you have no life in you.
Giving them "fun", "popular", "hip" music is only addressing the symptoms not the problem. Until they understand that mass is about more than how cool it is to them, you could have the Ringling brothers come in, but eventually, they'll get tired of it.
The Church doesn't cross all barriers by changing Herself and becoming different things to others. The Church crosses every barrier because of the Message She brings to the world.
Let me also say that if you want to have all of this popular-style type stuff at youth group, that's fine by me. Have a Reliant K or whatever the popular music is festival, go to their concert. That's great if that's what one is into. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, though, should be a setting of utmost respect and reverence, and by dragging things as profane as guitar, or especially drums, into it destroys this environment.[/quote]

I understand your point. I just think that it would be a colossal waste if Catholicism dies out because other churches "drag in" popular stuff and the kids like that better.

Edited June 14, 2009 by AngelofMusic

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1890040' date='Jun 13 2009, 11:24 PM']I understand your point. I just think that it would be a colossal waste if Catholicism dies out because other churches "drag in" popular stuff and the kids like that better. [/quote]
I wouldn't lose any sleep over that.
(Mat 16:18)

Edited June 14, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1890040' date='Jun 13 2009, 11:24 PM']I understand your point. I just think that it would be a colossal waste if Catholicism dies out because other churches "drag in" popular stuff and the kids like that better. [/quote]
Come now! Have faith in the truth!

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sacred Music Man

[AngelofMusic]

I have faith in the church... just not my generation. We aren't the most reliable in retaining information or wanting to do something if we aren't entertained.


Or typing well.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1890065' date='Jun 13 2009, 11:51 PM']I have faith in the church... just not my generation. We aren't the most reliable in retaining information or wanting to do something if we aren't entertained.


Or typing well. [/quote]

I understand. Have faith in the truth and hope in our generation. It's a struggle. Keep persevering. Pray for the young people! Pray for the conversion of your friends! It is the best we can do sometimes.

[AngelofMusic]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1890067' date='Jun 13 2009, 10:53 PM'] I understand. Have faith in the truth and hope in our generation. It's a struggle. Keep persevering. Pray for the young people! Pray for the conversion of your friends! It is the best we can do sometimes.[/quote]

True dat.

I keep on going! Living in the Southern Baptist region of America makes daily life a trial... but I manage to stay positive. The churches in this region are often hosting big things... and it saddens me to see my friends desert our own church to go there.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1890070' date='Jun 13 2009, 11:56 PM']True dat.

I keep on going! Living in the Southern Baptist region of America makes daily life a trial... but I manage to stay positive. The churches in this region are often hosting big things... and it saddens me to see my friends desert our own church to go there.[/quote]
I can understand your stances now. I went down to Alabama recently and I was surprised (and delighted) to hear the Gospel music on the radio. At the same time, I realised how emotionally packed they were with the rhythm, repetition of words, the melody/harmony. That sort of cultural thing--which originates from the secular--can really sink in and draw one to the crowd that performs it at their ecclesial community. Even though Jesus and being saved is being mentioned, I think people are just drawn to the excitement of it... the feelings. The music drew me in at one point, intrigued me (I'm a music student: I was listening for the jazz idioms), but then I realised you can just get caught up in the excitement, and maybe not the for-real deal. I liked listening to it outside of Church. Some argue it can aid in worship (someone start a thread if they have problems with that statement. ) but there's gotta be care taken for the mood and approach taken in the liturgy. If the excitement is only what's holding you up, it will come crumbling down, cause it changes. Music of a wordly sense changes. P&W, Gospel... it has a timely counterpart. The positive reason for chant is cause it doesn't have a wordly counterpart. It's timeless. No matter what language you have it in (though Latin is preferred in the Roman Church). It is something mystical that one has to approach with a sense of mystery. How can this be? Gotta turn off the stimulation addiction of the timely. That's sorta how I found it... plus I read some documents. But initially, I was drawn to its timeless qualities, and its participation in the liturgies throughout the centuries. Many men and women had witnessed and partook of this music before us! It's quite amazing to think about. Also, a side note, some studies said singing chant is good for you. It takes a lot of focus and control.

[AngelofMusic]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1890084' date='Jun 13 2009, 11:12 PM']I can understand your stances now. I went down to Alabama recently and I was surprised (and delighted) to hear the Gospel music on the radio. At the same time, I realised how emotionally packed they were with the rhythm, repetition of words, the melody/harmony. That sort of cultural thing--which originates from the secular--can really sink in and draw one to the crowd that performs it at their ecclesial community. Even though Jesus and being saved is being mentioned, I think people are just drawn to the excitement of it... the feelings. The music drew me in at one point, intrigued me (I'm a music student: I was listening for the jazz idioms), but then I realised you can just get caught up in the excitement, and maybe not the for-real deal. I liked listening to it outside of Church. Some argue it can aid in worship (someone start a thread if they have problems with that statement. ) but there's gotta be care taken for the mood and approach taken in the liturgy. If the excitement is only what's holding you up, it will come crumbling down, cause it changes. Music of a wordly sense changes. P&W, Gospel... it has a timely counterpart. The positive reason for chant is cause it doesn't have a wordly counterpart. It's timeless. No matter what language you have it in (though Latin is preferred in the Roman Church). It is something mystical that one has to approach with a sense of mystery. How can this be? Gotta turn off the stimulation addiction of the timely. That's sorta how I found it... plus I read some documents. But initially, I was drawn to its timeless qualities, and its participation in the liturgies throughout the centuries. Many men and women had witnessed and partook of this music before us! It's quite amazing to think about. Also, a side note, some studies said singing chant is good for you. It takes a lot of focus and control.[/quote]

That's awesome that you are a music student! I take music at my school and play the flute. Music is very important to me, vocal or instrumental. But that's why I want the more... contemporary music in our liturgy. I was confirmed with tons of kids... and now they have mostly left the church and have been going to their boyfriend/girlfriend/friend's churches. I thoroughly enjoy chanting [though I know I wouldn't be very good at it ]!

And I totally agree with the timelessness of chanting. This year for NCYC, my youth minister is talking about maybe us staying at a monastery! I was excited to hear the chanting.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='AngelofMusic' post='1890367' date='Jun 14 2009, 02:29 PM']That's awesome that you are a music student! I take music at my school and play the flute. Music is very important to me, vocal or instrumental. But that's why I want the more... contemporary music in our liturgy. I was confirmed with tons of kids... and now they have mostly left the church and have been going to their boyfriend/girlfriend/friend's churches. I thoroughly enjoy chanting [though I know I wouldn't be very good at it ]!

And I totally agree with the timelessness of chanting. This year for NCYC, my youth minister is talking about maybe us staying at a monastery! I was excited to hear the chanting. [/quote]
I think their exodus had more to do with catechesis. Just my humble opinion.

[jeffpugh]