The President

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Jul 26 2004, 12:05 PM'] Micah that is abusrd. I mean what if he applied that logic to all life issues. There are 1 million abortions in the US a year. Seeing as it is pre existing I won't do anything about it except limit it to 1 million abortions a year.

There are X existing lines of emb. stem cells. You can kill all you want in those lines but you can't make others.

That is not prolife. That is being poltical. You can't be kinda pro life. There aren't degrees to prolifeness. You are or you aren't. Bush is showing that he isn't with his stem cell polices. [/quote]
i agree.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Jericho923' date='Mar 25 2004, 11:04 PM'] Life for the unborn, and life for the unforgiven...PRo life needs to be across the board, not another cafetria item thing; but you are right..at least he chooses one way to be pro-life [/quote]
yup.

sounds like what Iacobus is saying.

[Iacobus]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 26 2004, 03:58 PM'] previously created embryos are allowed to be used for study. you just cannot create more embryos for the sake of study. that's completely different than saying a million abortions per year. if they said you can create and study x amount of embryos per year, that'd be the same. but those which are dead anyway being allowed to be used is simply because we can't go into the past and make them not die. [/quote]
Someone explain to me how me saying abortion is wrong and we should fight for all life and look beyond poltical sound bits (all of which is IN hte teaching of the Church) is wrong but that is right.

[quote]2300 The bodies of the dead must be treated with respect and charity, in faith and hope of the Resurrection. The burial of the dead is a corporal work of mercy;91 it honors the children of God, who are temples of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

The Church teaches that Embryos are alive. For them to than be dead they must have died. Therefore, CCC 2300 tells us we must treat them with respect and charity and bury them. Nowhere does it say we are free to do what we please with them after they have died. Moreover, the embs in these lines were aborted and killed in violation of the CCC for medical and scienftic use. It doesn't grandfather them in seeing as the Church has been around much longer than those lines.

[Aloysius]

okay you definitely got me there. if i had the oppurtunity i'd break into one of them labs and steal all the embryos to give them a proper burial.

it's still better that he's cut federal funding for them to continue making embryos just to study them than if he had done nothing. it's government sactioned desecration of bodies rather than government sanctioned murder. do you honestly expect any politician to call for a proper burial of all embryos in these labs? I doubt that would even be enforced, everyone would just consider it nuts. a perfect president would call for that, but a president who's taking steps toward a pro-life government can't afford to call for that. what he did is as good as or better than what anyone else would do.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote]That is not prolife. That is being poltical. You can't be kinda pro life. There aren't degrees to prolifeness. You are or you aren't. Bush is showing that he isn't with his stem cell polices. [/quote]

What you're proposing is that a small blemish on Bush's pro-life record makes is acceptable to overlook Kerry's entire record. BUSH IS EVIL!!! LET'S CANONIZE KERRY!!!

I may make people mad with this comment, but there are degrees to being pro-abortion. Yes, there is only one way of being pro-life, but when it comes to pro-abortion, there are many degrees. Bush is on the side of overturning Roe v. Wade, but does allow the use of existing ECC lines. Kerry wants to keep RvW from being overturned, create more ECC lines, increase funding to 'family planning' programs that promote abortion, and legalize same-sex marriage. He'll spout off the usual irresponsible politcal (and sadly common amongst 'catholic' politicians) BS about being 'personally opposed.'

If Kerry were against stem cell research, this would be an issue, but since this is a common point between both candidates, it cannot be used to contrast the two candidates.

I will pray for the conversion of pro-abortion politicians and those who support them with their money and their votes.

God bless you all,
Jay

[Aloysius]

in my previous quote explaining what was "allowed" i was simply saying what is now legally allowed, not what is morally allowable. I do not condone the use of these embryos for study, but it's the best we can do now to allow the existing ones to be used but stop any future ones being made for the sole purpose of study. we stopped the murder, we were simply unable to salvage the bodies of those that had already been murdered.

[ClaireBear]

GO BUSH! Watching the democratic national convention last night made me want to lash out irrationally... but man, Clinton [i]is[/i] an awesome speaker.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Jul 25 2004, 03:58 PM'] You know... the more I think on that. The more I think I could vote for Kerry and feel good about it.

Kerry is, unwittingly, pro life.

Yes, I said pro life and is.

So was Clinton.

Between 1980 and 1990 (The Reagan and 2 Bush years) abortions rose by 0.2 Million per year. And they were pro life.

Under Clinton the abotion rate went down by 0.6 milllion. Lets do a double take. The abortion rate went down by 0.6 million. Whoa! Down? 0.6 MILLION! Under Clinton??!?!

Poor Clinton. He tried so hard to make it easier to get abortions but made a life giving mistake, he addressed the social issues that lead to abortion.

Almost ONE MILLION lives difference between the pro life and the pro aborts impacts. Whoa. Thats big.

And whoa, could it mean that abortion is more than skin deep? A law banning abortion wouldn't be worth the paper it was printed on.

BUT you could treat the factors that give rasie to abortions. And if the factors that lead to abortions are smaller, than the number of people seeking abortions is smaller, and than the number of abortions go down. And someday, without a skindeep ban it will be gone.

Notice, the US has a higher abortion rate than the liberal western Europe. Hmmm.... they have socialist welfare and health care... maybe that is key. [/quote]
Percentages started going down during the Reagan years.

[qfnol31]

[url="http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html"]Abortion Statistics in the United States[/url]

Study those and see when the percentages began to fall.

[allis-challmers]

I know that this won't be veiwed very well but I don't know who I am going to vote for yet. One guy don't care if we kill babys and the other one is sending people to there deaths after they turn 18. they are both killing people one is just killing them younger than the other one. Also Bush is bad news for my job. I also think that this is one of the reasons some people might have abortions if they don't have any finacial securaty. I work construction and historically when a democrat is in office buisnesses expand and when republicans are in office they don't this means that I have more work when a democrat is in office.






Why can't there be a pro life Democrat??????????????????????? : :angry:

[Iacobus]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Jul 27 2004, 03:01 PM'] What you're proposing is that a small blemish on Bush's pro-life record makes is acceptable to overlook Kerry's entire record. BUSH IS EVIL!!! LET'S CANONIZE KERRY!!!
[/quote]
Umm I siad Bush is evil, you got me there. But I never said Kerry was good.

And last I checked the Catholic Answers voter guide (which I don't really care for but I know many people do) said Stem Cell was a non neg issue. Bush therefore fails. Kerry does, as so many have shown, fails as well. Bush isn't the great leader some make him out to be.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Jul 27 2004, 08:38 PM'] [url="http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedstates.html"]Abortion Statistics in the United States[/url]

Study those and see when the percentages began to fall. [/quote]

peep the link

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Jul 27 2004, 10:34 PM'] Umm I siad Bush is evil, you got me there. But I never said Kerry was good.

And last I checked the Catholic Answers voter guide (which I don't really care for but I know many people do) said Stem Cell was a non neg issue. Bush therefore fails. Kerry does, as so many have shown, fails as well. Bush isn't the great leader some make him out to be. [/quote]
Kerry fails MORE than Bush. Bush CUT federal funding for stem cell research, calling for the discontinuation of the practice of creating embryos for the sake of killing and studying them. he gets a C or B in my book.

[ClaireBear]

As Catholics, I think we definitely take into consideration the following statistics when deciding who we're going to vote for (they deal with the "life isues"). It is so hard sometimes to tell what's true and what's not, but I found these really helpful in figuring out the kind of person Kerry is (as opposed to Bush), because none of these are biased opinions, they're just [u]facts.[/u] Hope this helps


President George W Bush- Signed the Partial Birth Abortion Act into law on Nov 5 2003 and said "for years, a terrible form of violence has been directed against children who are inches from birth, while the law looked the other way."
Senator John Kerry- Voted no on the PBA ban act and voted numerous times against previous attempts to outlaw partial birth abortion.

Bush- Signed the Unborn Victims of Violence Act (Laci and Connors law) into law on April 1 2004. This recognizes unborn children as victims when they are injured or killed during the commission of federal or military crimes.
Kerry- Voted against the UVV act and voted in favor of a sub amendment that would have only recognized one victim when a pregnant woman and her child are attacked.

Bush- Early in his presidency GWB reinstated the Mexico City policy, which prevents tax dollars from being given to organizations that perform and promote abortions overseas.
Kerry- Has stated that his first executive order if elected would be to "reverse the Mexico City policy..." This action would give our tax dollars to organizations that perform and promote abortions overseas.

Bush- Is against taxpayer dollars being used to pay for abortions. While he was governor of TX, Bush filed a friend of the court brief stating his strong opposition to an attempt to compel the state to pay for elective abortions.
Kerry- Voted numerous times to allow abortions at US military medical facilities and has voted at least 25 times in favor of using taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions in the US

Bush- Has addressed the March for Life via telephone.
Kerry- Attends and is a featured speaker at pro-abortion rallies.

Bush- Backs a ban on all human cloning.
Kerry- Opposes a ban on all human cloning.

Bush- Endorsed by numerous prolife organizations including Right to Life of MI Political Action Committee.
Kerry- Endorsed by Planned Parenthood Action Fund. Planned Parenthood is Americas #1 abortion provider, providing 227,375 abortions in 2002.

Bush- Ruled that federally controlled substances cannot be used to assist in suicides.
Kerry- Has said that we will fillibuster any Supreme Court nominees who don't support abortion and if elected president would only nominate judges who support his position on abortion.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

ClaireBear's post said it all. Kerry isn't just tolerant of abortion, but he's one of the most ardent supporters of it!

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='ClaireBear' date='Jul 31 2004, 12:29 AM'] As Catholics, I think we definitely take into consideration the following statistics when deciding who we're going to vote for (they deal with the "life isues").  It is so hard sometimes to tell what's true and what's not, but I found these really helpful in figuring out the kind of person Kerry is (as opposed to Bush), because none of these are biased opinions, they're just [u]facts.[/u]  Hope this helps


President George W Bush- Signed the Partial Birth Abortion Act into law on Nov 5 2003 and said "for years, a terrible form of violence has been directed against children who are inches from birth, while the law looked the other way."
Senator John Kerry- Voted no on the PBA ban act and voted numerous times against previous attempts to outlaw partial birth abortion.

Bush- Signed the Unborn Victims of Violence Act (Laci and Connors law) into law on April 1 2004. This recognizes unborn children as victims when they are injured or killed during the commission of federal or military crimes.
Kerry- Voted against the UVV act and voted in favor of a sub amendment that would have only recognized one victim when a pregnant woman and her child are attacked.

Bush- Early in his presidency GWB reinstated the Mexico City policy, which prevents tax dollars from being given to organizations that perform and promote abortions overseas.
Kerry- Has stated that his first executive order if elected would be to "reverse the Mexico City policy..." This action would give our tax dollars to organizations that perform and promote abortions overseas.

Bush- Is against taxpayer dollars being used to pay for abortions. While he was governor of TX, Bush filed a friend of the court brief stating his strong opposition to an attempt to compel the state to pay for elective abortions.
Kerry- Voted numerous times to allow abortions at US military medical facilities and has voted at least 25 times in favor of using taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions in the US

Bush- Has addressed the March for Life via telephone.
Kerry- Attends and is a featured speaker at pro-abortion rallies.

Bush- Backs a ban on all human cloning.
Kerry- Opposes a ban on all human cloning.

Bush- Endorsed by numerous prolife organizations including Right to Life of MI Political Action Committee.
Kerry- Endorsed by Planned Parenthood Action Fund. Planned Parenthood is Americas #1 abortion provider, providing 227,375 abortions in 2002.

Bush- Ruled that federally controlled substances cannot be used to assist in suicides.
Kerry- Has said that we will fillibuster any Supreme Court nominees who don't support abortion and if elected president would only nominate judges who support his position on abortion. [/quote]

your facts support that if one supports kerry one, in turn, is truly supporting abortion... full-fledged too

who can support someone who will only do bad? and do wrong?

[the protector]

[quote]who can support someone who will only do bad? and do wrong? [/quote]
It goes both ways, know. Who would support someone whose administration is looking into developing new first strike nuclear weapons?

Personally, I'm glad the electoral votes for my states are almost pre-determined. I don't know how anyone could vote for either of these candidates with a clear conscience. One a threat to the unborn, and one a threat to the safety of the world.

Edited July 31, 2004 by the protector

[littleflower+JMJ]

abortion is the primary issue....theres a major difference between that you compared.

[the protector]

So you are fine with the President enacting contigency plans for nuclear attacks on nuclear and non-nuclear nations. You are fine with the fact that he may incite another arms race.

Edited July 31, 2004 by the protector

[littleflower+JMJ]

hm....if kerry can approve abortion, cloning, same-sex marriage, planned parenthood and anything and everything else under the sun thats liberal (and be supported and vowed to win by HIlary Clinton who actually approves of both abortion adn how China runs their country, talk about nuclear power there ) i might as well just stop right there......


:sleep:

pax...