Star Trek

[Arpy]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1866204' date='May 13 2009, 09:35 AM']In the movie [spoiler]it is a major (or as I call it -- a magical) supernova that is somehow capable of devouring the whole galaxy, but if it were the Romulus systems own star (i.e., its sun), then yes . . . to cause it to collapse into a black hole would destroy Romulus anyway.[/spoiler]

One other thing: a supernova does not have to be artificially turned into a black hole; instead, it automatically creates a black hole.[/quote]
Can't they also simply condense into a neutron star?

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1868464' date='May 16 2009, 01:17 AM']Which could come in useful if
[spoiler] there is a "Voyager" spinoff in the alternate timeline - they could be Tuvok's parents! [/spoiler] (which, by the way, has been one suggestion I have heard).[/quote]
Illogical

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='1868539' date='May 16 2009, 06:23 AM']Illogical[/quote]
Tuvok, I understand - you are a Vulcan man. You have just done without for 7 years, about. Paris please find a way to load a hypo-spray. I will give you the sign, just aim for his behind. Hormones are raging, synapses blazing, it's all so verrrrrrrrrrrrry illogical. Illogical.

[ReinnieR]

what?

pon farr?

what?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='1869088' date='May 17 2009, 02:44 AM']what?

pon farr?

what?[/quote]
What the Doctor sings during Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy. About the pon farr, yes.

[ReinnieR]

oh! yeah

i just thought we were talking about spock uhura.

you should see the fan made of gods and men

[url="http://startrekofgodsandmen.com"]http://startrekofgodsandmen.com[/url]

[ariaane]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1862609' date='May 9 2009, 04:54 PM']I have been a Star Trek fan for nearly forty years, and so the original show (with all its sequels and prequels) will always be my favorite.[/quote]

Please tell me that within your 40 years of Star Trek love, you didn't purchase the pointy ear thingies that Trekkies sometimes wear....

[Norseman82]

[quote name='ariaane' post='1869257' date='May 17 2009, 06:14 AM']Please tell me that within your 40 years of Star Trek love, you didn't purchase the pointy ear thingies that Trekkies sometimes wear.... [/quote]


Well, I'm guilty of that, plus I have the blue shirt as well.

[Brother Vinny]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1867859' date='May 15 2009, 03:58 AM']If you want a movie full of [b]mindless[/b] action, [i]then it’s a movie for you[/i]. [spoiler]I mean honestly, if you want a black hole that travels through time and Romulus who don’t have the sense to evacuate a planet while they have time to build a WHOLE STARSHIP, [b]go for it[/b].[/spoiler][/quote]

My understanding was that [spoiler]the Romulan vessel was a mining vessel (hence the huge laser drill), and had already been built and was quite far from Romulus when the disaster struck.[/spoiler]

[quote]There were literally parts in the movie that I was laughing, because it just didn’t make sense, [spoiler]like transporting from Saturn to Earth AFTER the device that supposedly blocks transportation is deployed makes PERFECT sense. Anti-Star Trek fanatics sometimes comment that a slight breeze can make the transporters not work, but if you have a transporter that can take you from one side of a solar system to another but cant get through some gravity (which is everywhere in the universe) you got some conflicting problems.[/spoiler][/quote]

Again, my understanding was that [spoiler]the field generated by the huge drill is what inhibited transporter capability, not gravity. And the transporter wasn't used to retrieve Kirk, Spock, and Spock Prime until such time that the drill was taken out of commission.[/spoiler]

[quote]Whatever this was, [i]it was not Star Trek in my book[/i]. [i]I have had fever dreams that made more sense than this movie did[/i].[/quote]

I've been a casual fan of the franchise since [i]Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,[/i] and a die-hard fan since 1986. [i]Star Trek[/i] has always held as its ideal (AFAICT) the telling of a good, character-driven, emotionally involving story in a diverse science-fiction universe with an underlying morality and the best special/visual effects at hand (this latter which, upon reflection, makes me feel a swell of pity for the producers of the original series, especially since the stories were so good). Not all of these were present in all stories. One of my favorites from [i]Star Trek: The Next Generation[/i] was "The Best of Both Worlds" two-parter, which was at its heart a rousing, kick-butt action movie that touched little, if at all, on high moral issues.

As I reflect on the new movie: was it a good story? Yes. Character-driven? Most certainly. Emotionally involving? I nearly cried great man-tears at [spoiler]the destruction of Vulcan and the death of Amanda Grayson.[/spoiler] Diverse science-fiction universe? Same as always, I guess, although there were aliens on the [i]Kelvin[/i] I'd never seen before. Underlying morality? It's not preached as in the past, but it's there, especially in [spoiler]Pike's recruitment speech to Kirk and in Spock's withdrawal from the Vulcan Science Academy due to its faculty's racist leanings.[/spoiler] Visual effects? Better than any installment of the series thus far.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1869653' date='May 17 2009, 07:23 PM']My understanding was that [spoiler]the Romulan vessel was a mining vessel (hence the huge laser drill), and had already been built and was quite far from Romulus when the disaster struck.[/spoiler][/quote][spoiler]Not quite, depending if you watch the first half or the second half, either the Federation Starfleet or Vulcans construct a special ship to handle the supernova. [b]IT takes some time to build a ship like that[/b]. However, the Romulan Star Empire has an entire fleet of vessels and an entire Empire at their disposal, doesn’t the thoughts of planetary evacuation or doing it themselves come to mind?

But again, in the movie the older Spock directly states that the funny swirling ship he few was constructed just for this event, that had to take some time.[/spoiler][quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1869653' date='May 17 2009, 07:23 PM']Again, my understanding was that [spoiler]the field generated by the huge drill is what inhibited transporter capability, not gravity. And the transporter wasn't used to retrieve Kirk, Spock, and Spock Prime until such time that the drill was taken out of commission.[/spoiler][/quote][spoiler]In the twenty forth century Federation Starfleet vessels could transport about 40,000 kilometers. The closest Saturn is to Earth on its orbit with earth is about [b][u]1,200,000,000 kilometers away[/u][/b]. Unless the Constitution Class Starship, the USS Enterprise, was equipped with a subspace transporter ([b]Which it wasnt!!!), [/b]its not possible, even Federation Starfleet in the [u]twenty fourth[/u]century has no safe access to subspace transporters and deem them unreliable. Mind you this movie takes place in the [u]twenty-third[/u] century.

On another note, it is against Federation law and Starfleet regulation to go to warp inside of a Solar System, but they do it so frequently during this movie. Energy fields nor gravity ought to interfere with transporters, at least not according to Star Trek physics. But the whole point of this is in the movie time-line the drill is ALREADY deployed and then they transport to this ship, which if you can transport several billion kilometers through this interference it stands to reason one could transport back. This whole scene is nonsense, in a literal physics perspective, Star Trek physics, and even if you just compare the plot inside the story.[/spoiler]
[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1869653' date='May 17 2009, 07:23 PM']I've been a casual fan of the franchise since [i]Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan,[/i] and a die-hard fan since 1986. [i]Star Trek[/i] has always held as its ideal (AFAICT) the telling of a good, character-driven, emotionally involving story in a diverse science-fiction universe with an underlying morality and the best special/visual effects at hand (this latter which, upon reflection, makes me feel a swell of pity for the producers of the original series, especially since the stories were so good). Not all of these were present in all stories. One of my favorites from [i]Star Trek: The Next Generation[/i] was "The Best of Both Worlds" two-parter, which was at its heart a rousing, kick-butt action movie that touched little, if at all, on high moral issues.[/quote]Ok.[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1869653' date='May 17 2009, 07:23 PM']As I reflect on the new movie: was it a good story? Yes. Character-driven? Most certainly. Emotionally involving? I nearly cried great man-tears at [spoiler]the destruction of Vulcan and the death of Amanda Grayson.[/spoiler] Diverse science-fiction universe? Same as always, I guess, although there were aliens on the [i]Kelvin[/i] I'd never seen before. Underlying morality? It's not preached as in the past, but it's there, especially in[/quote]There was nothing reasonable or coherent about the story... [spoiler]a black hole that takes someone through time and a Starfleet officer gets chunked off the ship by ANOTHER Starfleet officer, [b][u]and is fine[/u][/b]??? Huh?

Character driven? We have a Romulan mining vessel, that is like Buy-n-Large on steroids, and doesn’t resemble a mining vessel in any way, is thrown into the past, why they are thrown into the past isn't explained and the Captain hardly even speaks through the movie. This mining vessel pwns the Federation fleet and the rest of the fleet decides to sit out, and they let cadets ([i]without any experience or completion of training[/i]) run the ship? With one ship, against Romulan mining vessel that pwned half of the fleet!? If I was the Admiral in charge I would crawl into a deep hole under a very large rock, and cry... Think about it, a MINING VESSLE just pwned half of the fleet! That’s like your uncle’s fishing boat taking down half the US Navy, come on!

Just think with me for a second and try this... we will drop some young teenagers out of ROTC in the middle of a battle, give them command, and see how they manage. Then, we will pull out the experienced officers and not allow the rest of the armed forces to help? NO! I personally think it is stupid and hopefully others see this... Like a Starfleet doctor, who his Character throughout the original series insists he can NEVER do harm, infects Kirk with a [b][u]DANGEROUS VIRUS[/u][/b]!!!

Which at the end of the movie, a perfect moment to negotiate or attempt to hash out a compromise (Huh?), as the mining vessel is being sucked into a BLACKHOLE! Then, after they decline Kirk decides to stick around and try to blow them up? THERE IN A BLACKHOLE, their going to be dead, that’s when you remember “[i]O YAH! BLACKHOLES DON’T TAKE YOU THROUGH TIME!!!”[/i] And that’s when you get out of there!

Kirk in the Wrath of Kawn doesn’t even wait to ask if they want help, he immediately starts to prepare for their evacuation and to help them, even if we believe that competent Captain would stick around while a black hole is RIGHT OUTSIDE the ship, this makes Kirk seem like a jerk to me personally. Offering help he really isn't willing to offer, while putting his OWN SHIP at risk. For this, Starfleet relieves Pike, the competent Starfleet Captain, and hands command over to Kirk who hasn’t even finished his training yet and is still suspended![/spoiler][quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1869653' date='May 17 2009, 07:23 PM'][spoiler]Pike's recruitment speech to Kirk and in Spock's withdrawal from the Vulcan Science Academy due to its faculty's racist leanings.[/spoiler] Visual effects? Better than any installment of the series thus far.[/quote][spoiler]The scene with the Vulcan Science Academy, while I admit it was fair and there was nothing too nonsensical in it, Spock in the Original Series says he joined Starfleet because he felt he could do more there than in the Vulcan Science Academy. A contradiction, not necessarily, but the scene could have been done better.

But, for Kirk, the timeline was changed because before Kirk grows up just fine and his father inspires him to join Starfleet. But did they get the cockiness of Kirk down, I think yes.[/spoiler]

Visual effects, [b]sure[/b]!!! Its a lot of fighting and action, mindless fighting and action.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Brother Vinny]

Gosh, CCat, I don't hear you voicing an objection that a similar situation in [i]The Wrath of Khan[/i] pressed cadets into service as the lone vessel within range of the hijacked [i]Reliant.[/i]

[spoiler]Did you note the planet that Spock chunked Kirk off to had the same name of the planet Spock Prime suggested dumping Gary Mitchell on in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"? Yeah, Spock jettisoning a perceived threat, that would [i]never[/i] happen, right?[/spoiler]

I don't know what else to argue. Your knowledge of Romulan shipbuilding exceeds mine so far as to know what their mining ships are supposed to look like, while prior to having seen the film I just looked at the drill attached to the ship in the trailers and thought, "I wonder if that's some sort of mining vessel or drilling platform."

You are, of course, free to your opinions. I thought the movie was stunning--moreso than most of its predecessors (leaps and bounds better than movies I, V, IX, and X), and sets the stage for more awesomeness to come.

"I like this ship. It's exciting." --Mr. Scott

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1870055' date='May 18 2009, 01:47 AM']Gosh, CCat, I don't hear you voicing an objection that a similar situation in [i]The Wrath of Khan[/i] pressed cadets into service as the lone vessel within range of the hijacked [i]Reliant.[/i]

[spoiler]Did you note the planet that Spock chunked Kirk off to had the same name of the planet Spock Prime suggested dumping Gary Mitchell on in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"? Yeah, Spock jettisoning a perceived threat, that would [i]never[/i] happen, right?[/spoiler]

I don't know what else to argue. Your knowledge of Romulan shipbuilding exceeds mine so far as to know what their mining ships are supposed to look like, while prior to having seen the film I just looked at the drill attached to the ship in the trailers and thought, "I wonder if that's some sort of mining vessel or drilling platform."

You are, of course, free to your opinions. I thought the movie was stunning--moreso than most of its predecessors (leaps and bounds better than movies I, V, IX, and X), and sets the stage for more awesomeness to come.

"I like this ship. It's exciting." --Mr. Scott[/quote]And in The Wrath of Khan Admiral Kirk and everyone admits that their just cadets and their not prepared for what was happening, in fact they throughout the movie point out their inexperience made the battle that much more difficult. ([i]Not to mention the cadets wernt in command of the vessle, the trained and competent officers were still in command.[/i]) Which Admiral Kirk made a stupid mistake and got moped across the floor, and he admits this. That’s fine, it is good character development in a story to find this. BUT in this movie we don't find this, in fact we see the opposite.

Starfleet officers are held to a higher standard than others, [spoiler]I would expect Spock or someone to point out, “Spock, we have shuttles and a brig, how about we use one of those things?” I can’t think of any instance where a Starfleet officer literally throws someone off the ship and is thought to have done a good job.

Nothing to do about Romulan shipbuilding, think about it... In Star Trek Generations the supernova was moving quite fast, within hours the entire star system was destroyed, to say that the Federation or anyone built a ship to address the supernova of THEIR star within hours is pretty fast, but seeing that it makes more sense to assume that more time had passed between this time, thus it makes more sense to assume the Romulans didn’t or were unable to evacuate. The question that comes to mind is, “Why”? [/spoiler]

If you liked the movie, fine, there were good scenes and it was on a rudimentary level enjoyable. But the only thing I see is a Star Wars fan who decided to write a Star Wars kind of scrip in a Star Trek setting, without doing any research, and portraying it in a way which is belittling of the Star Trek genre, and admits he didn’t know much about Star Trek and was not intending to reproduce something of the Star Trek genre.

So basically it’s a slap in the face to the genre of Star Trek and its just an easy way to make money off of a name. How about we make the next movie about Voyager, and then not really write a script and reek the rewards of a very devoted and large fan base for Star Trek to go see the movie? Think about it... I don't think anyone took the time to write this movie to make it good, it could of been REALLY REALLY REALLY good... but in my opinion, it wasn't.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[KnightofChrist]

This Star Trek film has very likely saved the franchise from death. It was vastly better than the last 3 movies. Even more so than the previous.

Clearly there have always been to big hurtles in making Star Trek films, Star Trek Canon, and very picky fans who vastly over analyze every little detail. Good grief Charlie Brown, it just a TV show.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1870069' date='May 18 2009, 02:16 AM']This Star Trek film has very likely saved the franchise from death. It was vastly better than the last 3 movies. Even more so than the previous.

Clearly there have always been to big hurtles in making Star Trek films, Star Trek Canon, and very picky fans who vastly over analyze every little detail. Good grief Charlie Brown, it just a TV show.[/quote]Did this movie save Star Trek from death? Sure, I suppose someone could argue this. But I personally think it was completely disconnected from Star Trek, its like trying to rekindle a fire with a bucket of water.

Was this movie better than the last three movies? I suppose some ([i]maybe most[/i]) people liked this movie more than the last tree, but that is a matter of personal taste.

Am I being picky, possibly a bit more than necessary, but I would like to imagine movie scripts should just have a LITTLE reason to it.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1870055' date='May 18 2009, 06:47 AM'][spoiler]Did you note the planet that Spock chunked Kirk off to had the same name of the planet Spock Prime suggested dumping Gary Mitchell on in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"? Yeah, Spock jettisoning a perceived threat, that would [i]never[/i] happen, right?[/spoiler][/quote]
Cannot believe I missed that! Haven't watched that episode in a long time. . .

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1870055' date='May 18 2009, 06:47 AM']"I like this ship. It's exciting." --Mr. Scott[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1870069' date='May 18 2009, 12:16 AM']This Star Trek film has very likely saved the franchise from death.[/quote]
Actually the new "Star Trek" has killed the franchise, because it has replaced it; and like everything else produced in Hollywood today, the new movie sees youthful actors with pretty faces and computer generated visual effects as a replacement for a well written story.

[ariaane]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1869595' date='May 17 2009, 11:20 PM']Well, I'm guilty of that, plus I have the blue shirt as well.[/quote]



And you announce this as if it's something to be proud of...

[Brother Vinny]

[quote]Starfleet officers are held to a higher standard than others, [spoiler]I would expect Spock or someone to point out, “Spock, we have shuttles and a brig, how about we use one of those things?” I can’t think of any instance where a Starfleet officer literally throws someone off the ship and is thought to have done a good job.[/spoiler][/quote]

[spoiler]I don't recall Spock <i>literally</i> throwing anyone off the ship; had he done so, the throwee would have been exposed to the "disease and death wrapped in darkness and silence" McCoy described early in the film. When Kirk was put off ship, he was in some sort of escape pod. I assume Spock had thought of the brig and discarded the idea, as he'd seen firsthand Kirk's ingenuity in overriding the [i]Kobayashi Maru[/i] scenario earlier in the film.

If you saw Spock literally throwing someone off the [i]Enterprise[/i],[/spoiler] then I respectfully submit that you and I are communicating across a temporal rift from our own alternate timelines. Please let me know if, in your timeline, there was ever an abomination committed to celluloid know as [i]Star Trek: Nemesis.[/i] If there was not, then yours is perhaps the best of all possible worlds, and one I should strive to visit someday.

Live long and prosper.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1870090' date='May 18 2009, 04:36 AM']Actually the new "Star Trek" has killed the franchise, because it has replaced it; and like everything else produced in Hollywood today, the new movie sees youthful actors with pretty faces and computer generated visual effects as a replacement for a well written story.[/quote]

Guys on the catholicunderground podcast said the story was actually well written. I haven't seen it myself... would like to... even though I'm not big into sci-fi stuff, especially Trek.

[Adrestia]

I liked it. However, I'm not as hung up on sci-fi being more "sci" than "fi" as many true Trekkies are. If I were to think like a scientist, the movie would bother me. I just wanted a good story, good acting, good effects, and some funny one-liners. The walk-on cameos of old Star Trek actors was a bonus!