Star Trek

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Brother Vinny' post='1870102' date='May 18 2009, 08:08 AM'][spoiler]I don't recall Spock <i>literally</i> throwing anyone off the ship; had he done so, the throwee would have been exposed to the "disease and death wrapped in darkness and silence" McCoy described early in the film. When Kirk was put off ship, he was in some sort of escape pod. I assume Spock had thought of the brig and discarded the idea, as he'd seen firsthand Kirk's ingenuity in overriding the [i]Kobayashi Maru[/i] scenario earlier in the film.

If you saw Spock literally throwing someone off the [i]Enterprise[/i],[/spoiler] then I respectfully submit that you and I are communicating across a temporal rift from our own alternate timelines. Please let me know if, in your timeline, there was ever an abomination committed to celluloid know as [i]Star Trek: Nemesis.[/i] If there was not, then yours is perhaps the best of all possible worlds, and one I should strive to visit someday.

Live long and prosper. [/quote][spoiler]Okay, tell me what would happen if a Navy Captain took their first officer or a cadet and dropped him in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with nothing but a raft, what would happen to that Navy Captain?

The ONLY defense for Spock is that he went insane after the destruction of his home world, but honestly there are some things that even if you have gone insane you never get away with. This is one of those times, because there was enough time to clearly think through the act and he clearly thought about it for a moment, and there were other OFFICERS (not cadets) that could have thought about and NOT done it.

No other Starfleet Officer, or Captain for that matter, in the Star Trek genre would do this. But then again it shows the stupidity of putting CADETS in command of the FLAGSHIP of the Federation Starfleet! It doesn’t work, and the only thing I meant by literally was in other Star Treks the Captain [b]sometimes[/b] threatens to drop someone off on SAFE Planet with SUPPLIES, and namely with a TRANSMITTER. But again, its has only been a threat and NEVER acted on, in fact even when the other person doesn’t heed the threat it is NEVER acted upon.

If Spock transported Kirk to a beach resort planet with barely clad women, with supplies, and a communications device, the whole scene with old Spock (that is remarkably striking to the one with Yoda in Star Wars) isn’t possible.

It was poorly contrived and stupid, sure there are times in other shows and in Star Trek the script is poorly contrived but it doesn’t normally include the complete defamation of a Star Fleet Captain. It would be like wanting to have an episode about murder, so we have Captain Picard kill the entire bridge crew dressed as a knight, then Riker comes onto the bridge and takes his seat as nothing happen. Then later a sort of “OH! Yeah, murders wrong in the twenty fourth century, RIGHT!” IT just doesn't work!!!

Spock was a Cadet, he shouldn’t have been Captain anyways. If I were to defend Spock from a Starfleet Court-martial, it would be he shouldn’t have been in a command position anyways! He was incompetent, unprepared, and clearly in a lot of emotional pain (Spock). It was the responsibility of those officers on the ship to relieve him of command, they didn’t.

NO, its just that stupid in the movie, the writers could have done something else to have this scene and to watch Kirk get chased by two snow monsters.[/spoiler]

Edited May 18, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[scardella]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1867859' date='May 15 2009, 03:58 AM']...in fact he is a big Star Wars fan and was intended upon presenting Star Wars in a Star Trek way...[/quote]

It's about time somebody started getting Star Trek up to speed!

(I'm waiting for this: )

[scardella]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1870164' date='May 18 2009, 11:46 AM'][spoiler]No other Starfleet Officer, or Captain for that matter, in the Star Trek genre would do this. But then again it shows the stupidity of putting CADETS in command of the FLAGSHIP of the Federation Starfleet! It doesn’t work, and the only thing I meant by literally was in other Star Treks the Captain [b]sometimes[/b] threatens to drop someone off on SAFE Planet with SUPPLIES, and namely with a TRANSMITTER. But again, its has only been a threat and NEVER acted on, in fact even when the other person doesn’t heed the threat it is NEVER acted upon.

If Spock transported Kirk to a beach resort planet with barely clad women, with supplies, and a communications device, the whole scene with old Spock (that is remarkably striking to the one with Yoda in Star Wars) isn’t possible.

It was poorly contrived and stupid, sure there are times in other shows and in Star Trek the script is poorly contrived but it doesn’t normally include the complete defamation of a Star Fleet Captain. It would be like wanting to have an episode about murder, so we have Captain Picard kill the entire bridge crew dressed as a knight, then Riker comes onto the bridge and takes his seat as nothing happen. Then later a sort of “OH! Yeah, murders wrong in the twenty fourth century, RIGHT!” IT just doesn't work!!!

Spock was a Cadet, he shouldn’t have been Captain anyways. If I were to defend Spock from a Starfleet Court-martial, it would be he shouldn’t have been in a command position anyways! He was incompetent, unprepared, and clearly in a lot of emotional pain (Spock). It was the responsibility of those officers on the ship to relieve him of command, they didn’t.

NO, its just that stupid in the movie, the writers could have done something else to have this scene and to watch Kirk get chased by two snow monsters.[/spoiler][/quote]

[spoiler]Actually, Kirk intended to leave 2 officers marooned on an uninhabited planet when they started mutating in "Where No Man Has Gone Before". Just thought I'd mention it.[/spoiler]

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='scardella' post='1870190' date='May 18 2009, 12:48 PM'][spoiler]Actually, Kirk intended to leave 2 officers marooned on an uninhabited planet when they started mutating in "[b]Where No Man Has Gone Before[/b]". Just thought I'd mention it.[/spoiler][/quote][spoiler]Intended to and actually doing it is different, and in this episode the two people exhibited extraordinary and dangerous powers. Q like powers, not to mention he clearly had gone insane and killed Kelso. Kirk was attempting to save the both of them. Sorry, it just doesn’t work.

[url="http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Where_No_Man_Has_Gone_Before_(episode)"]http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Where_No_M...efore_(episode)[/url][/spoiler][quote name='scardella' post='1870188' date='May 18 2009, 12:44 PM']It's about time somebody started getting Star Trek up to speed!

(I'm waiting for this: )[/quote]Look, I respect Star Wars and I like Star Wars. But I think Star Wars isn't intended to be anything more than entertainment, if that can be accepted then Star Wars is actually pretty good, but if you try to read anything more out if it, it fails.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1870164' date='May 18 2009, 12:46 PM']Spock was a Cadet, he shouldn’t have been Captain anyways.[/quote]

Actually, his rank is given as Commander. He is not himself a cadet; he was writing the Kobayashi Maru program and assigning cadets to ships. In other words, he clearly outranked the others we were dealing with. Kirk, Bones and Uhura were all cadets. I don't know what Checkov's rank was, but at age 17, he couldn't have been beyond a cadet. And Sulu not knowing to take the parking brake off suggests he doesn't have much experience, either. So, they are likely cadets, though possible ensigns. Whatever Scotty was, he was not a cadet. I do agree that the bridge crew was [i]much[/i] too young, and that they seemed to be playing 'musical bridge' at one point in the middle of the movie.


Kirk did maroon Khan on Alpha Ceti V, [i]as well as[/i] a Starfleet officer with him. I can't recall the girl's name - the historian who fell in love with him in 'Space Seed' and who was his wife in [i]Wrath of Khan[/i]. (Just looked her up on Memory Alpha: Lt. McGivers) I will agree, though, that marooning is not a typical form of discipline, and in this case it is clearly an indication of the captain not being in his right mind. Picard often threw people in the brig, IIRC.



I will also agree that the Original Series had 'ideas' to make you think - usually contrived moral dilemmas that it put its characters into - and the solution was almost [i]always[/i]: We work together and never betray one another. They are told to leave crewmen behind often enough, but Kirk, Spock and Bones would never leave each other to save themselves. (Not that they don't strand other people in horrible ways....) They have to save whoever is in a tight spot (usually Kirk, but occasionally one of the others: Bones in "The Empath," "Plato's Stepchildren," and "Guardian on the Edge of Forever") I think the new movie captured the beginning of this idea, by focusing on Kirk and Bones, and later Kirk and Spock, learning to become a team.

The 'dilemma' here is how Spock deals with becoming a member of an endangered species. He's always been very proud of being a Vulcan, denying his human heritage - and yet serving Starfleet, not the Vulcan Science Academy. While he has 'logical' reasons for his choice (the opportunity to learn through exploration is more available with Starfleet), he also has the personal reason of being rejected by his own people. In the show, both his father and his intended reject him rather painfully for not being a 'real' Vulcan. Now, he has to decide between continuing to hold himself aloof, or becoming a core part of the remnant of Vulcan. So, questions of identity and what is the right course to choose is a very 'Star Trek' thing to focus on, though I will admit that the reference to 'destiny' sounded very Star Wars.


(Oh, and I [i]*love*[/i] Star Wars, by the way, but I discovered Star Trek first [well, [i]Next Generation[/i], anyway]. I think Star Wars is a myth, in that it tries to get at the truth of what it means to be human by focusing on very personal family dynamics with a vast setting - in this case, across the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire. So yes, this Star Trek seemed a little Star Wars with the emphasis on how both Kirk and Spock reacted to the legacy of their fathers.)

Edited May 18, 2009 by MithLuin

[scardella]

Khan: Kirk, I AM YOUR FATHER!
Kirk: NO!!!

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1870244' date='May 18 2009, 02:22 PM']Actually, his rank is given as Commander. He is not himself a cadet; he was writing the Kobayashi Maru program and assigning cadets to ships. In other words, he clearly outranked the others we were dealing with. Kirk, Bones and Uhura were all cadets. I don't know what Checkov's rank was, but at age 17, he couldn't have been beyond a cadet. And Sulu not knowing to take the parking brake off suggests he doesn't have much experience, either. So, they are likely cadets, though possible ensigns. Whatever Scotty was, he was not a cadet. I do agree that the bridge crew was [i]much[/i] too young, and that they seemed to be playing 'musical bridge' at one point in the middle of the movie.[/quote][spoiler]A minute point, but I suppose I can agree. But this only serves to incriminate Spock more and aggravates his actions.[/spoiler]

[b]Kirk[/b]: "I can’t understand why it always gives you pleasure to see me proven wrong."
[b]Spock[/b]: "An emotional earth weakness of mine." [quote name='MithLuin' post='1870244' date='May 18 2009, 02:22 PM']Kirk did maroon Khan on Alpha Ceti V, [i]as well as[/i] a Starfleet officer with him. I can't recall the girl's name - the historian who fell in love with him in 'Space Seed' and who was his wife in [i]Wrath of Khan[/i]. (Just looked her up on Memory Alpha: Lt. McGivers) I will agree, though, that marooning is not a typical form of discipline, and in this case it is clearly an indication of the captain not being in his right mind. Picard often threw people in the brig, IIRC.[/quote]
[b]Khan[/b]: "...He never told you how... Admiral Kirk... sent seventy-two of us into exile on this... barren sand heap... with only the contents of these cargo bays to sustain us."
[b]Chekov[/b]: "You lie! On Ceti Alpha V, there was life! A fair chance!"

In the episode [url="http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Space_Seed_(episode)"]Space Seed[/url] Captain Kirk drops all criminal charges against Kahn and offers to resettle them, [i]not forcefully[/i], and Kahn agrees. If it was "really" a free choice or not that is how it was presented, and they agreed; it was an option preferable to a Federation Penal Colony. This is not marooning them, Ceti Alpha V had life and they were helped in settling.

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1870244' date='May 18 2009, 02:22 PM']I will also agree that the Original Series had 'ideas' to make you think - usually contrived moral dilemmas that it put its characters into - and the solution was almost [i]always[/i]: We work together and never betray one another. They are told to leave crewmen behind often enough, but Kirk, Spock and Bones would never leave each other to save themselves. (Not that they don't strand other people in horrible ways....) They have to save whoever is in a tight spot (usually Kirk, but occasionally one of the others: Bones in "The Empath," "Plato's Stepchildren," and "Guardian on the Edge of Forever") I think the new movie captured the beginning of this idea, by focusing on Kirk and Bones, and later Kirk and Spock, learning to become a team.[/quote]Redshirts died in the original series, fair enough, and they understood that in a tight situation they were expendable as all Starfleet enlisted personnel and officers are. BUT, not at their own hands and they worked very hard to prevent it.

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1870244' date='May 18 2009, 02:22 PM']The 'dilemma' here is how Spock deals with becoming a member of an endangered species. He's always been very proud of being a Vulcan, denying his human heritage - and yet serving Starfleet, not the Vulcan Science Academy. While he has 'logical' reasons for his choice (the opportunity to learn through exploration is more available with Starfleet), he also has the personal reason of being rejected by his own people. In the show, both his father and his intended reject him rather painfully for not being a 'real' Vulcan. Now, he has to decide between continuing to hold himself aloof, or becoming a core part of the remnant of Vulcan. So, questions of identity and what is the right course to choose is a very 'Star Trek' thing to focus on, though I will admit that the reference to 'destiny' sounded very Star Wars.[/quote]This was a very minor subplot in the movie, at the least, and offers little solution to a very real problem for him. In fact, if the movie focused on this more, it could have been more redeemable, but then it would be less action.[quote name='MithLuin' post='1870244' date='May 18 2009, 02:22 PM'](Oh, and I [i]*love*[/i] Star Wars, by the way, but I discovered Star Trek first [well, [i]Next Generation[/i], anyway]. I think Star Wars is a myth, in that it tries to get at the truth of what it means to be human by focusing on very personal family dynamics with a vast setting - in this case, across the rise and fall of the Galactic Empire. So yes, this Star Trek seemed a little Star Wars with the emphasis on how both Kirk and Spock reacted to the legacy of their fathers.)[/quote]I have read and seen a lot of Star Wars, I personally don’t see it, sorry.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='scardella' post='1870285' date='May 18 2009, 03:23 PM']Khan: Kirk, I AM YOUR FATHER!
Kirk: NO!!![/quote]


YAH!!!!!!


[i]Though impossible, but a good laugh shouldn’t be scrutinized too much.[/i]

Edited May 18, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Winchester]

This thread looks like declassified CIA files.

[Brother Vinny]

[url="http://www.theonion.com/content/video/trekkies_bash_new_star_trek_film"]Lollerskates![/url]

It's funny because it's true.

[MithLuin]

Initiating counter measures, Captain.

[url="http://bbot.org/badtranscript-startrek.html"]Bad Transcript of 'Star Trek'[/url]

WARNING: Foul language is used in this parody. Proceed with caution. Massive spoilers as well.

[Brother Vinny]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1871401' date='May 19 2009, 10:36 PM']WARNING: Foul language is used in this parody.[/quote]

No kidding! Funny as [spoiler]____[/spoiler], though.
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Made you look!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1871401' date='May 19 2009, 08:36 PM']Initiating counter measures, Captain.

[url="http://bbot.org/badtranscript-startrek.html"]Bad Transcript of 'Star Trek'[/url]

WARNING: Foul language is used in this parody. Proceed with caution. Massive spoilers as well.[/quote]
The humor in the article does point out some of the many failings of the story.

That said, this Star Trek should have had a secondary title like the other films! I would have called it:

Star Trek XI: "Lost" in Space

or perhaps

Star Trek XI: Lens Flares

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1873781' date='May 23 2009, 05:03 AM']Star Trek XI: "Lost" in Space[/quote]
LOST lol

[Shpout]

I loved it! had never seen a star trek episode or movie in my life but i really love how they handled the whole movie. It makes it possible for many more star trek movies while not rejecting the 30 years of previous movies and episodes! very cleverly done! makes me want to watch some of the older episodes!

[Archaeology cat]

[url="http://givetongue.blogspot.com/2009/05/satire.html"]A great satire[/url]

[quote]As a Rodevacantist, I echo William Shatner's statement that "Gene Rodenberry created the Star Trek of the ages," and that any change is obviously the result of directors and writers who no longer have the inspiration and guidance of the Rodenberry spirit. Any change is inorganic. All change is inorganic. This Novus Trek is an abomination and I - and those few who have not drunk the Targ-aid - will show you JUST WHY THIS IS SO.

After the death of Gene Rodenberry, Jews, Freemasons, Protestants, and Communists influenced the creation of the abomination "Star Trek XI." Many people welcomed this "New" Star Trek, saying it was more "accessible" to non-Geeks and encouraged a spirit of dialogue. Puh-lease. The beauty of Star Trek lies in its mystery and not in its comprehensibility. Why else do you think Chancellor Gorkon, in Star Trek VI, said "You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon"? Do you understand Klingon? No. Do *I*? No! Ergo - mystery. QED.

And if you WANT to understand Star Trek, you're WRONG to want that - and I bet you're a bad mother/father, too, if not a closet homosexual.

So I - and a few others who keep the Trek Tradition - maintain that this new formulation of Star Trek differs so drastically from the Star Trek of Gene Rodenberry as to be positively harmful to the Trekkie or Trekker. Was this New Trek an organic development? No! It was a shocking hermeneutic of discontinuity: a rupture with all we held dear, a NEW TREK. Where are the transporter beaming noises of old? Why does Scotty have a real Glasgow accent, rather than his heavy fake Scottish brogue? Why does Spock show so much emotion in Star Trek XI? Why is there no sacrificial aspect? Why do you see "Trekkies" attending New Trek in SHORTS - without any respect for the Mysterium of Star Trek?

Shocking, isn't it? Maybe those "phaser smells and bells" might not seem too important to you - or maybe the "Captain's Log, Stardate..." before the episode don't seem "necessary" - but without those things, is it really...Star Trek? Can it really...engage us?

That is the question many Trekkies have had to ask themselves.

When the Novus Disorder Star Trek was released, many Trekkies were bewildered by the changes. Hollywood executives (again, Jews) ruthlessly stripped old traditions of their meaning and implemented radical innovations. You see, JJ Abrams, Damon Lindelof, Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman are secretly working to undermine the teachings of the one, true, Gene Rodenberry. Gene Rodenberry was sublimely dedicated to the preservation of traditions: the clichéd scenes, the utilization of exotic and scantily clad women, the Prime Directive, etc. But Novus Ordo Trekkies believe in "religious freedom." Its women wear pants and go to the "Academy" - they even enter into "careers" and display initiative! In the Traditional Star Trek, you never saw a respectable Star Fleet Woman without an impossibly short miniskirt, unless she were in another impossibly revealing costume, and the women always assumed highly feminine and monotonous roles! Degeneration of society, anyone?

Many Trekkies left - disillusioned. Trekkie clubs which used to be packed are now...empty. Maybe those Trekkies had undergone the horror of seeing Clown-Star-Trek. We may never know just how many were lost. Thankfully, I am a Rodevacantist. I am not lost.

But welcome to the Novus Ordo Star Trek! A place where "No One," and not "No Man," has gone before.

And so what if the body of science fiction authors have hailed this Novus Ordo Star Trek as a legitimate and valid part of the Star Trek Legacy? Do you think the authority to interpret what is and is not the Star Trek legacy lies with *them*? On the contrary, it lies with Traditional Star Trek fans. If we don't like it, it is not a part of Tradition (with a CAPITAL T).

A reader, alive to this abomination, pointed out the following:


As you can see from the pictures, True Nimoy has heavily hooded small eyes, a narrow nose, and small earlobes.

Imposter "Nimoy" has wide eyes that appear not to have a hooded appearance, a large, drooping nose, and large earlobes.

Quote from Imposter "Nimoy":
"Canon is only important to certain people because they have to cling to their knowledge of the minutiae. Open your mind! Be a 'Star Trek' fan and open your mind and say, 'Where does Star Trek want to take me now'."

Quote from True Nimoy:
"It was a nothing role with just a few lines for Spock to 'pass the torch' to the new cast. I wasn't interested in that... as far as I was concerned, Spock had a grand exit in 'Star Trek VI' and I didn't want to disrespect that in any way." (on being invited to appear in 'Star Trek, Generations'. True Nimoy, obviously, would not appear in NewTrek.)

I'd like to end by asking: what about the third secret of the Andorian Peace Treaty that was never released, eh?[/quote]

[ReinnieR]

Rodevacantist.

wow

[puellapaschalis]

I just went to see it with a mate of mine this evening

I love how the languages geek got to kiss the ubergeek

Now I don't feel so bad about having a crush on Data

[Arpy]

[quote name='ReinnieR' post='1879316' date='May 31 2009, 12:28 PM']Rodevacantist.

wow[/quote]
I know, right? Instant <3.

[ReinnieR]

I just saw it again. At the Nation's largest IMAX Dome theater, actually the worlds largest.

[url="http://www.lsc.org/lsc/startrek"]LSC[/url]

Edited June 11, 2009 by ReinnieR