Just Want To Vent

[Sojourner]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1914613' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:20 PM']From my understanding it would apply more to situations where a priest was unavailable for daily Mass (for example) and there was a Communion service and Liturgy of the Word in place of an actual Mass. In that case you'd be following the "leadership" of the deacon or lay minister who was directing the service. We recently had that exact scenario play out when we went to a daily Mass, our DRE led the service and we followed his instruction on when to stand, sit, kneel, sing, etc. I wouldn't just do whatever parish office staff told me to, it would have to be within certain circumstances where their authority to make that decision was apparent.[/quote]


That is exactly the situation I believe this would apply to.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1914621' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:22 PM']+J.M.J.+
gotcha. thanks everyone for helping me figure this out. lol. man, you'd think i'd just become Catholic or something![/quote]


I think your questions have been great. They've really pushed me to think through the GIRM directive more thoroughly.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1914572' date='Jul 8 2009, 03:56 PM'] hello, pot.


amen.


That still doesn't defend you claiming irreverence on anyone's behalf when they are more closely following the instructions in the GIRM than you. You create more scandal by scoffing and raising hell than you do by simply following the priest and speaking with him in private about your concerns at a later time.


As Terra has already mentioned, you need not know the reason for a bishop's decision, nor could anyone explain to you why each has chosen what he has. Bishop's are given that authority for a reason and you are to be obedient to his authority when there is not grave reason to oppose.


You show a lack of unity, an act against the GIRM, when you do not follow the norm. Unless there is a grave reason to go against the flow of the congregation acting on the instruction of a lay minister, deacon, priest, or bishop, you are creating more scandal and are at fault for that. Perhaps we should all scowl at you and whine about your irreverence.


Said so eloquently. Thank you, Terra.


You took the words right out of my mouth.



And again from 43 (2nd time it's been quoted):

In a given celebration [b]even if it is a divergence from the liturgical norm[/b] we are to obey the direction of the deacon, priest, or lay minister [b]for the sake of unity[/b]. Now, I'm sure if you have problems with the determination made you can address that after the Mass (respectfully), but as has been stated already this divergence does not affect the validity of the Mass. So, it is better to follow direction and address concerns later than to diverge from that direction solely because you do not agree with it.
Thank you, again, Terra.[/quote]

What can I say that won't cause another incorrect assumption? Perhaps nothing.

[Maggyie]

Isn't it unpleasant to watch the Christians eating each other... time was we left such things to the lions. And over a trifling matter, too! If it was something more serious the claws would really come out!

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1914699' date='Jul 9 2009, 01:51 AM']...time was we left such things to the lions.[/quote]



You're right, of course

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1914699' date='Jul 8 2009, 04:51 PM']Isn't it unpleasant to watch the Christians eating each other... time was we left such things to the lions. And over a trifling matter, too! If it was something more serious the claws would really come out![/quote]

Well said.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914658' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:34 PM']What can I say that won't cause another incorrect assumption? Perhaps nothing. [/quote]
I would love it if you would show me where I've made an incorrect assumption on your position. I've been careful to link to your exact words, and to provide documentation for my position. I've also stated I would love correction from reputable sources, if you can provide them.

So, please feel free to clarify your position, or substantiate what you've opined. If we have misunderstanding, I'm sure that can be worked out.

[quote name='Maggie' post='1914699' date='Jul 8 2009, 06:51 PM']Isn't it unpleasant to watch the Christians eating each other... time was we left such things to the lions. And over a trifling matter, too! If it was something more serious the claws would really come out![/quote]
Perhaps we can look to Proverbs 27 for a bit of wisdom: "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

I think it is entirely appropriate for Christians to charitably discuss topics such as appropriate postures and reverence in Mass, among other issues. I, for one, have found the overall discussion helpful. We all deal with annoyances from time to time when attending Mass, and exploring the proper response to that has been valuable for me. If you feel anything I have said has been out of line, either theologically or personally, I welcome your correction.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Terra Firma

[Lilllabettt]

When I was in formation, we learned from somewhere that it's not a fault/sin/act of disobedience to kneel before/during/after Communion, but that there is merit in following whatever is directed.

To put it crassly, you don't have to, but if you do, there's brownie points.

The hyper focus on physical posture is an American thing. I remember when Cardinal George wrote to the Vatican to ask about the rule that says we should stand after Communion, if it was still okay for people to sit or kneel. And the response was kind of like "no, duh."

When I was in Italy, they sat, stood and knelt when they pleased. At least in all the churches I visited. I'm against that. But they did it in the Pope's backyard ...

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1914862' date='Jul 8 2009, 07:59 PM']When I was in formation, we learned from somewhere that it's not a fault/sin/act of disobedience to kneel before/during/after Communion, but that there is merit in following whatever is directed.

To put it crassly, you don't have to, but if you do, there's brownie points.

The hyper focus on physical posture is an American thing. I remember when Cardinal George wrote to the Vatican to ask about the rule that says we should stand after Communion, if it was still okay for people to sit or kneel. And the response was kind of like "no, duh."

When I was in Italy, they sat, stood and knelt when they pleased. At least in all the churches I visited. I'm against that. But they did it in the Pope's backyard ...[/quote]

I've been in a lot of churches in other countries where it isn't an issue because there are no kneelers because there are no pews.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1914762' date='Jul 8 2009, 08:35 PM']I think it is entirely appropriate for Christians to charitably discuss topics such as appropriate postures and reverence in Mass, among other issues. I, for one, have found the overall discussion helpful. We all deal with annoyances from time to time when attending Mass, and exploring the proper response to that has been valuable for me. If you feel anything I have said has been out of line, either theologically or personally, I welcome your correction.[/quote]

I think discussing this topic can be helpful but surely I'm not the only one who thinks this particular exchange has been a little... unfriendly. I don't think anyone is being willfully ignorant here, for instance, and it's not a description that would normally be used in a non-angsty exchange of ideas, which is the ideal we shoot for. Unfortunately everyone on both sides of this kind of argument often ends up feeling angry and judged. I often wonder how things go in the Vatican or at Bishops' Conferences behind closed doors when these things are discussed - if this issue is emotional for us, I am sure it also is for bishops and cardinals and the heads of dicasteries.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Maggie

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1915002' date='Jul 8 2009, 10:19 PM']I think discussing this topic can be helpful but surely I'm not the only one who thinks this particular exchange has been a little... unfriendly. I don't think anyone is being willfully ignorant here, for instance, and it's not a description that would normally be used in a non-angsty exchange of ideas, which is the ideal we shoot for. Unfortunately everyone on both sides of this kind of argument often ends up feeling angry and judged. I often wonder how things go in the Vatican or at Bishops' Conferences behind closed doors when these things are discussed - if this issue is emotional for us, I am sure it also is for bishops and cardinals and the heads of dicasteries.[/quote]

My favorite bishop talked about being at Vatican II. He and John Paul were two of the youngest bishops there, and they were both from Eastern Europe, so spent lots of time together. He said they were treated like kids at Thanksgiving and shunted off to a kid's table. John XXIII banned smoking inside as a way of putting pressure on people who wanted smoke breaks. Can you imagine how cranky some of them got?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1915002' date='Jul 8 2009, 11:19 PM']I think discussing this topic can be helpful but surely I'm not the only one who thinks this particular exchange has been a little... unfriendly. I don't think anyone is being willfully ignorant here, for instance, and it's not a description that would normally be used in a non-angsty exchange of ideas, which is the ideal we shoot for. Unfortunately everyone on both sides of this kind of argument often ends up feeling angry and judged. I often wonder how things go in the Vatican or at Bishops' Conferences behind closed doors when these things are discussed - if this issue is emotional for us, I am sure it also is for bishops and cardinals and the heads of dicasteries.[/quote]
Thanks for your input.

If I was out of line in employing the term "willful ignorance," I apologize. It has not been my intent to malign anyone's character; rather, it has been to encourage all participants in our discussion to adequately support their assertions, taking into account relevant documents.

For what it's worth, while I was impatient at points in this discussion, I never felt angry or judged. I am less than convinced that it is realistic to expect that human exchanges will be angst-free. I personally do not shoot for that as an ideal, whether in an exchange of ideas or otherwise. Sometimes a certain amount of angst is necessary to motivate people to move to a position of truth. Nevertheless, prodding should of course always be done charitably. Again, if I've crossed that line, I apologize.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Mrs. Bro. Adam' post='1914658' date='Jul 8 2009, 05:34 PM']What can I say that won't cause another incorrect assumption? Perhaps nothing. [/quote]
Your comments do not help anyone to "clearly see" what you are getting at. You want to whine about perceived irreverence and/or disrespect but you don't want anyone to charitably point out where you may be in error.

I think you would be best heard through Terra who is clearly much more patient with ignorance or stubbornness, whichever the case may be.

You seem to be avoiding her points, however, and responding simply where you can play the victim. Why am I not surprised?

[Nihil Obstat]

Is it just me, or is this thread kind of catty?

Just sayin'.

[MissyP89]

[quote]You seem to be avoiding her points, however, and responding simply where you can play the victim. Why am I not surprised?[/quote]

Not cool or charitable at all, especially from a mod.

[quote]Is it just me, or is this thread kind of catty?[/quote]

ANYWAY.

~*~*~

As to the OP (if there is one at this point ), all I have to say is, who are we to disobey the Magisterium who are completely entitled to making pastoral decisions they feel are necessary? And who are we, as members of the [i]universal[/i] Church, to cause division among our brothers? How does that fit in with who we are supposed to be?

Respect the GIRM. Respect your bishop. There's grace in obedience, especially when it's uncomfortable. End of story.

Edited July 9, 2009 by MissyP89