Just Want To Vent

[VoTeckam]

[quote name='StColette' post='1912733' date='Jul 6 2009, 03:50 PM']Sometimes all you can do is be a good example. The parish where I used to attend would not knell after the Lamb of God. Micah and I would kneel anyway. Some of the youth started picking up on us kneeling and began to kneel as well. So just keep kneeling and being a good example. If someone asks why you're kneeling, take the moment to evangelize but be careful not to come across as holier than thou or know-it-allish.[/quote]


Yes! I completely agree.

Another thing to remember is that the vast majority of the people behaving irreverent way have NO IDEA why what they are doing is so offensive. The burden really fall on us, the people who do knwo better and wish to honor God in their behavior and posture at Mass. So really if you are unhappy with the behavior at your church you might want to ask what are you doing to fix it. Leading my example is an excellent (and perhaps most important) first step. You could also talk t o the priest or the staff about a bulletin insert explaining why we do what we do during Mass (instead of a list of things we shoudl and should not do).

We should avoid acting as thought these people who act irreverently jsut do not love God as much as we do....their poor formation is only their fault up to a point.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='StColette' post='1912733' date='Jul 6 2009, 12:50 PM']Sometimes all you can do is be a good example. The parish where I used to attend would not knell after the Lamb of God. Micah and I would kneel anyway. Some of the youth started picking up on us kneeling and began to kneel as well. So just keep kneeling and being a good example. If someone asks why you're kneeling, take the moment to evangelize but be careful not to come across as holier than thou or know-it-allish.[/quote]


[quote name='Maggie' post='1912739' date='Jul 6 2009, 12:58 PM']This is another thing that varies a lot from place to place and it's so annoying. Most places kneel after the Lamb of God. Here in Cleveland at the bishop's direct request we do not. I would love to kneel but I figure Jesus is even better pleased by obedience to an annoying request than by kneeling. Why must Cleveland be so backward in all respects.[/quote]
precisely what i was going to say. and pray for the bishop to change his mind.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='VoTeckam' post='1912742' date='Jul 6 2009, 03:04 PM']....

We should avoid acting as thought these people who act irreverently jsut do not love God as much as we do....their poor formation is only their fault up to a point.[/quote]

I agree. Which is why I didn't say anything this past school year and I'm pondering on how to best present the Church's points.

To some extent, example does work however I really think something needs to be said...........respectively, and nicely of course, and in a positive manner.

----------------
Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lifehouse/track/easier+to+be"]Lifehouse - Easier to Be[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[Luthien]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1912266' date='Jul 6 2009, 01:35 AM']Actually I've been to several parishes which stood. I think it is an option in the U.S. as well, depending on the bishop's decision.

I was thrown at first as well, but I've come to learn one can be reverent while standing just as well as one can be reverent and respectful while kneeling.

If, for example, the President or another head of state were to enter the room, the proper response would be to stand out of respect. We stand out of respect for a judge entering the courtroom. It seems like this gesture could be equally respectful during consecration, if the local ordinary so determined it was. It's kind of like how we should dress at Mass in a manner similar to how we would dress to meet the President or other heads of state.[/quote]


I wouldn't kneel to a President or Head of State. I would kneel in the presence of the Almighty. Kneeling isn't just about showing respect, its also about showing reverence and humility.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Luthien' post='1912859' date='Jul 6 2009, 04:53 PM']I wouldn't kneel to a President or Head of State. I would kneel in the presence of the Almighty. Kneeling isn't just about showing respect, its also about showing reverence and humility.[/quote]
Whether or not you would kneel for a head of state is really not the point. I think the point Terra was trying to make was that the custom is to stand when they enter the room. If it were kneeling, you would kneel. In the same respect, custom here is one of the two, either standing or kneeling, as the bishop decides.

What matters most is the inner disposition. If the bishop has asked for the congregation to stand, that should not affect a person's inner disposition.


And to you, Teresa, about your subtitle: There are. (Though at the moment I only have time to find one.)

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=94666"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=94666[/url]

[Luthien]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' post='1912879' date='Jul 6 2009, 08:22 PM']Whether or not you would kneel for a head of state is really not the point. I think the point Terra was trying to make was that the custom is to stand when they enter the room. If it were kneeling, you would kneel. In the same respect, custom here is one of the two, either standing or kneeling, as the bishop decides.

What matters most is the inner disposition. If the bishop has asked for the congregation to stand, that should not affect a person's inner disposition.


And to you, Teresa, about your subtitle: There are. (Though at the moment I only have time to find one.)

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=94666"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=94666[/url][/quote]

I guess what I was trying to say was that standing for a president is different than kneeling for God.

[toebat]

I know there are some areas close to where I live that do not have Churches. They stand because they have to. No chairs, kneelers or anything. Just a tarp over a few posts. And some of them do not wear shoes because they would rather be barefoot than show up in the only daily pair they have. Their best clothes are ill-fitting at best and some wear tee-shirts because they have to. These people teeter on the edge of total poverty, and their faith shames me.
I think that if it is the best you have, wear it. Your clothes have nothing to do with how much you love God. You live and love as a community, and as a community you have to decide how you are going to love your neighbor... flip-flops and all.




I really count myself lucky we even have a Priest here... even if he does Mass in shorts. I envy you that have latin mass, or even have more than one Priest. My parish technically doesn't even have a Church. We have a life center. And, I am thankful for it.

[Brother Adam]

1. Appropriate dress depends on local custom and what you are capable of dressing in. Exterior dress often reflects interior disposition and preparation to receive the king of glory. Even in impoverished Ireland and other poor districts people still obtained "Sunday dress" and wore it to Mass. It all depends on where your priorities are.

2. Standing and kneeling, and holding hands, and singing, and the orans, and crossing yourself, and bowing, and every other external gesture has a symbolic meaning at Mass. The action of kneeling has a different meaning than of standing. Both are worshipful positions, however during various parts of the divine liturgy, kneeling better reflects where we should be in our hearts and minds. This is why kneeling is often properly retained in the US liturgy. During various parts of the consecration it is required for its meaning. As the last two Holy Father's have noted, the grave sacrilege of Catholics receiving without proper disposition and in a state of grace is far t0o common in the US.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Brother Adam

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Luthien' post='1912859' date='Jul 6 2009, 03:53 PM']I wouldn't kneel to a President or Head of State. I would kneel in the presence of the Almighty. Kneeling isn't just about showing respect, its also about showing reverence and humility.[/quote]
Well, if the bishop -- or even the priest, in appropriate circumstances, has determined that standing should be the proper posture, then the GIRM allows for that sort of discretion. Discretion is even allowed to laypeople, who can decide to stand or sit instead of kneeling if some physical situation or barrier prevents kneeling.

If the GIRM allows discretion during a time that we're meant to show reverence, then it stands to reason that even Rome allows that standing can be a posture that shows reverence, even if it is not the most perfect posture for showing that.

As a secondary note, it is my understanding that Eastern tradition dictates standing during consecration (and Apo or someone else more familiar can correct me if I'm wrong on that point). Are we really saying Eastern Christians are behaving in a totally irreverent way?

I think there are a variety of physical positions that can show reverence, but frankly I think the exterior posture means nothing if the heart is not truly reverent. Perhaps rather than spending time critiquing other people's postures and judging their level of motivation, we would all be better off developing true reverence in our hearts, posture, and obedience to the authorities God has set over us.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1912956' date='Jul 6 2009, 07:43 PM']Well, if the bishop -- or even the priest, in appropriate circumstances, has determined that standing should be the proper posture, then the GIRM allows for that sort of discretion. Discretion is even allowed to laypeople, who can decide to stand or sit instead of kneeling if some physical situation or barrier prevents kneeling.

If the GIRM allows discretion during a time that we're meant to show reverence, then it stands to reason that even Rome allows that standing can be a posture that shows reverence, even if it is not the most perfect posture for showing that.

As a secondary note, it is my understanding that Eastern tradition dictates standing during consecration (and Apo or someone else more familiar can correct me if I'm wrong on that point). Are we really saying Eastern Christians are behaving in a totally irreverent way?

I think there are a variety of physical positions that can show reverence, but frankly I think the exterior posture means nothing if the heart is not truly reverent. Perhaps rather than spending time critiquing other people's postures and judging their level of motivation, we would all be better off developing true reverence in our hearts, posture, and obedience to the authorities God has set over us.[/quote]

[zunshynn]

Having rubrics for the faithful's posture is a relatively new thing, anyway.

The extraordinary form does not have rubrics for the faithful... there are customs, of course, but the faithful are free to choose the posture that they feel best allows them to pray.

Of course one interior disposition is more important than exterior. But I think the sad thing is that people don't seem to understand the value of posture at Mass, period. Even the ones that think it's so important for everyone to lift their hands up to pray, or to hold hands, really don't seem to have a reason for that. But it DOES mean something, because God gave us bodies so that we could honor Him through our bodies as we do our souls.

And for the record, I'm not accusing anyone here of suggesting that posture is unimportant... I'm just commenting on how sad it is that so many Catholics don't think posture means anything.

[toebat]

I would love to see a Mass with all the bells and whistles. I would reeeaaally love to see a Latin Mass. But I have no idea where around here.
We kneel and stand properly in my Parish. My priest is cool in that he watches and listens to the Bishop. He, err, just wears shorts all the time. :/
I just see some of the less Catholic areas here having Mass outside. They do not kneel because of the type of ground, I have heard... Mud, gravel, ect. But, the faith it takes to get up, look outside and see it pouring down rain, and still go to your little makeshift tent and attend Mass. I love them for that.

[Mrs. Bro. Adam]

[quote]I think there are a variety of physical positions that can show reverence, but frankly I think the exterior posture means nothing if the heart is not truly reverent. Perhaps rather than spending time critiquing other people's postures and judging their level of motivation, we would all be better off developing true reverence in our hearts, posture, and obedience to the authorities God has set over us[/quote]

Can those who hearts are truly in the right place not be saddened by those who's actions are irreverence to the sacredness of the Mass?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='toebat' post='1913010' date='Jul 6 2009, 09:01 PM']I would love to see a Mass with all the bells and whistles. I would reeeaaally love to see a Latin Mass. But I have no idea where around here.
We kneel and stand properly in my Parish. My priest is cool in that he watches and listens to the Bishop. He, err, just wears shorts all the time. :/
I just see some of the less Catholic areas here having Mass outside. They do not kneel because of the type of ground, I have heard... Mud, gravel, ect. But, the faith it takes to get up, look outside and see it pouring down rain, and still go to your little makeshift tent and attend Mass. I love them for that. [/quote]

[url="http://web2.iadfw.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm"]http://web2.iadfw.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm[/url]

[princessgianna]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1912287' date='Jul 5 2009, 10:54 PM']At the Newman Center, it's a hug-fest at the sign of peace and it's basically a party for a few minutes.

I'm thinking of how to stop it next year. [/quote]
but..but...but I like randomly hugging random people. And if they sit far away as to ignore me -I then run across the Church during mass and get in thier face , obviously distracting them from prayer and then inquire for about 2-3 mins about thier spiritual life.
I only leave when the priest has to tell everyone to return to thier places,so that he may continue.