Does Prayer Actually Work?

[Kitty]

Inspired by Hassan's thread in the Lame board, I thought it could be a Lame-less (?) topic here.

People who pray/are prayed for by someone else are just as likely to die in an accident than people who do not pray or who are not prayed for by someone. Therefore, prayer doesn't really do anything. It is just a way to lift people's spirits when there really is no hope, and it's a way for people to feel like they are "helping" the person out.

What's the purpose of prayer? Does someone actually hear prayers? If they do, do they care? Does prayer work?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i still say there are a lot of miracles that don't happen to the non-prayer folks.

sure, there's things like cancer remissions, that could and does happen to non-prayer folk.
this stuff isn't measured enough to compare the rate between the groups.

but, i've heard of things like corneas developing where there were none, it's not like we're starfish where that's possible. it's not even plausible. for example, padre pio. i think some of these act as miracles. or incorruptibles, if not from prayer for someone per se, close second.

course, these things like corneas developing, are very rare. so rare, it's hard to say whether it happens in nonprayer folks. i've never heard anything like it, though.

[KnightofChrist]

I've always have had my prayers answered. I am happy when the answer is yes, and accept when the answer is no.

Many times people pray for things that are simply not the will of God. We must learn to accept that we do not always get what we pray.

[tinytherese]

God is not a genie that grants our every wish. Sometimes He says yes, other times no, and other times He says yes but not now. Do parents always say yes and give us what we want right then and there all of the time? No, they do not. God does the same for us and He is Our Heavenly Father.

[Kitty]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1948367' date='Aug 13 2009, 08:53 PM']I've always have had my prayers answered. I am happy when the answer is yes, and accept when the answer is no.[/quote]

So esentially, you could not pray at all and the same events would occur at their own will.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1948376' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:05 PM']So esentially, you could not pray at all and the same events would occur at their own will.[/quote]

Not necessarily. Sometimes God is moved by prayers so as to make the situation better.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1948376' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:05 PM']So esentially, you could not pray at all and the same events would occur at their own will.[/quote]

No. For what I pray for and the answer is yes, then that would not be true. For what I pray for and the answer is no, I learn how to pray correctly so hopefully the answer will be yes the next time I pray.

I hope this does not offend. But you are still hurting because the prayer you prayed for your loved one was no. I can see why people hate and deny God after such an answer, but I do not understand it. Denying God denies the soul, the immortal soul of the person who went through so much pain on earth. Denying God, denies heaven the place of eternal happiness and goodness. I have seen people die very painful deaths even after much prayer that, that would not happen. I will also likely die such a death, given the problems I deal with health wise. People who go through such pain can offer it up to God as Christ did, and receive graces for it. But to deny God is an affront to the person who went through so much and is now on the other side with God.

Edited August 14, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Resurrexi]

I believe what God Himself said about prayer:

Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

[Kitty]

But if "God's will be done"...then everything will happen regardless of how many people pray/how hard you pray/how often you pray. If God's will can be swayed by a few prayers, then God's will really isn't God's will...I mean, really, God could be "moved" by a college student praying to pass a difficult test, but he isn't moved when a family prays that a loved one is saved from a terminal illness? That doesn't make sense.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1948399' date='Aug 13 2009, 09:23 PM']But if "God's will be done"...then everything will happen regardless of how many people pray/how hard you pray/how often you pray. If God's will can be swayed by a few prayers, then God's will really isn't God's will...I mean, really, God could be "moved" by a college student praying to pass a difficult test, but he isn't moved when a family prays that a loved one is saved from a terminal illness? That doesn't make sense.[/quote]

Have you ever considered that maybe God permits someone to die of an illness, even when many have prayed that he would not die of the illness, because greater good comes out of his dying at that time? Perhaps, because the person dies of the illness, he will be able to be absolved of his sins and receive his God before his death, while otherwise the person would have died in a car accident while in mortal sin. (Obviously I am speaking of a completely hypothetical situation.)

[havok579257]

maybe because it was that family members time to go? God has a plan for all of us. Everything happens for a reason. this family member dying happened for a reason. just because one can not yet see why this happened, does not mean it did not happen for a reason.

I pray to God all the time. Although almost all of my prayer's are thanking God and asking God to show me my path in life, the path that will lead me to him when I die. I ask God for guidance so I can be an instrument of him. i try not to pray asking for things because who am I to know if that is the best thing for me. Only God knows. I just ask him to show me the path to rightousness and I will follow. I ask for God;s guiadance in my life and not my own petty needs and wants. plus prayer is a time to give God thanks for everything he has done for you and your family. Most of us don't really see all the wonderful things we really have. We only see what we don't have.

Everything happens for a reason. Nothing is by accident or chance. If it is someone's time to go, then it is their time to go. If they are going to heaven, then what is there really to be sad about? they are going to a better place. Yes, be said you can not be with them now, but if they lived a good life and are now going to meet God, what is there to be upset about?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Kitty' post='1948399' date='Aug 13 2009, 10:23 PM']But if "God's will be done"...then everything will happen regardless of how many people pray/how hard you pray/how often you pray. If God's will can be swayed by a few prayers, then God's will really isn't God's will...I mean, really, God could be "moved" by a college student praying to pass a difficult test, but he isn't moved when a family prays that a loved one is saved from a terminal illness? That doesn't make sense.[/quote]

For some graces it is the will of God that we pray to receive a certain grace to receive it. Some times we simply ask for things that are not meant to be.

Take your example, sometimes it is the reverse. The student prays and the answer is no, and the family prayers and the answer is yes. But in the case you bring up, the person that dies if they have kept the faith are more happy than anything you could imagine. As for the student he could go on and become a doctor and save the lives of like the one that die, all because of a chain reaction caused by passing a test.

We will all die, some die much sooner than others, but death will come for us all. But to deny God, denies the souls of those that have died. It seems selfish to reject God because the answer we wanted was not the answer, and because of that we also hurt the very person that already went through so much pain. Saying God does not exist is telling that person that they no longer exist. Denying someone existence is well mean.

Edited August 14, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Caritas]

Prayer helps us to know both God and ourselves... We are the ones who need prayer-- we are trying to be one with God, to have God's Will and our will become the same, and how else can we achieve this but through prayer? As for praying for others, I think it makes us more attune to them and to their needs, and if we are going to chalk up everything to God's knowledge and Will, then I suppose we are fulfilling His Will by praying.

[Gregorius]

I would also like to add that prayer is not always asking for specific things. Prayer is communication with God. It helps you to know His will, even if you don't necessarily understand it at the time. Whenever I perform or compete, I pray that I play to the glory of His name, good or bad. I find that I usually do well afterward, but then there are of course times where I don't do so well. I am assured that I am loved and that my performance was indeed pleasing, and I also am able to be pleased with the performance. Practically, it helps me to connect with others around me as well as with God.

There are moments in my life where I am just astounded by what's around me. I thank God for what's around me, and I just... bask in His warmth. And I find I can be more easily astounded. Awe provokes imagination, imagination can lead to some profound thoughts, and I am able to experience things that just can't be described in words, and that most of my peers would only begin to dream of.

Then there are moments in life where I have chosen and choose poorly. After so long of making bad choices and trying to correct them by myself and failing, I expressed my sorrow to God and He helped me come back to Him. It is freedom, freedom to do right that can only be obtained only if you pray to be enslaved no more.

Even if you don't ask for them, God gives you many gifts believe it or not. God loves you so much that He gave you Himself. He gives Himself to all that seek it. This is ultimately expressed in the Eucharist, a word that means "thanksgiving". But anyway, after such gifts, I can only thank Him, and in return offer the gift of myself to Him.

I don't know what your experience says to you, but in my experience, prayer definitely works. So let me ask you: have you prayed or ever prayed in the past?

[CatherineM]

Sometimes my prayers are answered best when God says no, I just don't realize it at the time.

[Hassan]

I knew a girl whose friend, once a devout Christian, lost her faith after her prayers went unanswered.

Or specifically her prayers while she was being violently raped (I'll let you guess what her request was) went unanswered.

God is our heavenly Father. In fact I'm told the Aramaic Jesus uses to describe him could more accurately be translated as "daddy" a term of close affection. And like any good daddy our requests-like her sobbing pleas that it would stop-must sometimes go unanswered. But we must remember it's for our own good.






I'll try to quote Aquinas from memory, and Rexi can tell me how close I am.

"The only way God, in his goodness, could permit evil to exist is if his omnipotence were such that he could bring goodness even out of evil.

When I was a Catholic that girl challenged my insistence on the power of prayer by asking about her best friend's desperate pleas that God would deliver her from her rapist. Like a good Dervish I quoted that line from Aquinas (More accurately, I'm sure than I just did here).

She seemed to be filled with righteous indignation that I would dare propose such an empty answer. While I did whore my conscience out for the defense of the faith, and spoke Aquinas' word with solemnity, the truth is that I was embarrassed by my response. Or rather shocked at my own audacity.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Hassan

[Saint Therese]

Of course I believe that prayer "works". Because that's what [i][b]Jesus[/b][/i] said: Ask and it will be given to you, seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you.
But prayer isn't magic. And sometimes God does answer our prayers, but not right away.
There's a saying: Prayer doesn't change God's mind, it changes us.
Maybe real faith is trusting in God no matter what the answer to your prayer is?

Edited August 14, 2009 by Saint Therese

[QuoteMan]

God helps us even when we can't see it. He can send help in any way he wants. Just look at this (it's been used one million times): There's a flood moving through a city, a man is sitting inside his home, and not leaving because he says "God will save me, for I have prayed to him." Eventually, the police come by, they tell him, "Hurry, get into the car with us!" The man replies "God will save me, for I have prayed to him." So the police leave him. By now, thw water has risen to the second floor of the house. A man on a moterboat comes by the house, and says "Hurry, hop on!". The man replies "God will save me, for I have prayed to him." So the moterboat man leaves. The water has now risen to the roof of the house, and the man is sitting on top. A helicoptor comes by, and drops a rope ladder down to the man on the roof. The man says yet again "God will save me, for I have prayed to him." The helicoptor leaves. The man drowns. In Heaven, the man says to God "I prayed to you, so that you would save me, yet you let me die!" God answerd "Did I not send you three chances to live? I sent the police, the man on the moterboat, and the helicoptor. Yet you didn't take my help.


Even if we can't see it, God will always help us if we pray.

[Kitty]

What about people who die needlessly, like children, who have supposedly never sinned?

The truth is, no one can really say if prayer does anything because we don't know if there is a heaven or hell, and we don't know if we'll be sitting up there going "oh, I get why that prayer wasn't answered."

And what about murderers who kill children and adults alike and get away with it, leaving families in anguish? How is "the greater good" leaving people in misery and pain?

Sorry, this is just something that I have not gotten over (and never will) and I'm very bitter about it. I started doubting God's existance 4 years ago and it's gone downhill ever since.

[Hassan]

I was mistaken. Aquinas was Quoting Augustine

[i]Article 3. Whether God exists?
Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.

Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God's existence.

On the contrary, It is said in the person of God: "I am Who am." (Exodus 3:14)

I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways.

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence — which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

Reply to Objection 1. [b]As Augustine says (Enchiridion xi): "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil." This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good. [/b]

Reply to Objection 2. Since nature works for a determinate end under the direction of a higher agent, whatever is done by nature must needs be traced back to God, as to its first cause. So also whatever is done voluntarily must also be traced back to some higher cause other than human reason or will, since these can change or fail; for all things that are changeable and capable of defect must be traced back to an immovable and self-necessary first principle, as was shown in the body of the Article. [/i]