Lutherans Go With Gay Pastors

[Apotheoun]

Luckily I was never a Lutheran.

[Selah]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 August 2009 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1250972678' post='1954390']
Luckily I was never a Lutheran.
[/quote]

Rather than counting yourself "lucky" why not pray for those who are still in the church?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1250973767' post='1954399']
Rather than counting yourself "lucky" why not pray for those who are still in the church?
[/quote]
I have always prayed for the conversion of heretics.

[Vincent Vega]

Wow, I'm not sure I've ever seen a conversation decay so abruptly on Phatmass before.

[Selah]

Just like a topic on Christian Teen Forums. Congratulations

[Apotheoun]

Although the snide personal comments between some posters are sad, I do not think that the thread itself has decayed. Stating a position that some people may not like to hear is not the same thing as "decay."

[Apotheoun]

How the Catholic Church can remain in ecumenical dialogue with groups that continue to move further and further away from any semblance of Christian faith and practice is beyond me.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' date='21 August 2009 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1250913464' post='1954148']
Why y'all quit quibbling about how evil or not evil or whatever the Lutherans are? All Protestant sects lack the fullness of the Truth. We know that. Protestantism itself is a grave scandal. We know that. This latest development just goes to show the error of individual interpretation of Sacred Scripture, the rejection of Sacred Tradition, and the lack of a Magisterium to guide the way. We know that.

Lutherans and most Prots are Christians. Quit bickering about if YOU think they are or not. I suspect there are more people in hell who claimed to be Catholic than who claimed to be Protestant. Many bear more fruit with their two sacraments than many of us do with our full seven...

How 'bout instead of taking this time to bash Lutherans and Prots in general, we sing Glory to the Lord for this historical event? In one swoop, the folly of Protestantism has been exposed by the falling away of the original Prot sect from a basic immovable Christian truth. As such, this shines the light of Truth on the error of Luther's methods (many of his beefs were right, btw) and is a chance for many true Christians to open their eyes, search elsewhere for Truth, and find their way home to the Church.

Glory to God! The error is brought out of the darkness into the light for the world to see! Come Holy Spirit and lead our separated brethren home!
[/quote]

Thank you! Someone who sees reason.

Calling them heretics--true or not--is not going to change anyone's heart in the ELCA, especially while we turn our noses down at them. How welcomed would [i]you[/i] feel in our Church if her members spoke of you as inconsequential, invalid, and evil?

This is a great loss for the ELCA and, indeed, for the Church as a whole. But as someone else noted, the conservatives will leave. Why not pray for them, that they might help heal the further schism brought about by coming into the fullness of Truth? We need to reach out and open our hearts to them now, not condemn.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissyP89' date='22 August 2009 - 03:21 PM' timestamp='1250976115' post='1954414']
Thank you! Someone who sees reason.

Calling them heretics--true or not--is not going to change anyone's heart in the ELCA, especially while we turn our noses down at them. How welcomed would [i]you[/i] feel in our Church if her members spoke of you as inconsequential, invalid, and evil?
[/quote]
Lying to them will not help them either. There is no place for political correctness in the Church. When Christ called the leaders of the Pharisees "whited sepulchers" it was not polite, but it was true.

[Selah]

[quote]Lying to them will not help them either[/quote]

No one is "lying" to them. I think she's objecting to name calling (which this thread seems to have a lot of, lol)

[quote]When Christ called the leaders of the Pharisees "whited sepulchers" it was not polite, but it was true. [/quote]

Yes. Jesus said that. You aren't Jesus.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1250977041' post='1954423']
No one is "lying" to them. I think she's objecting to name calling (which this thread seems to have a lot of, lol)[/quote]
Catholics must stop hiding the light under a bushel.

[quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1250977041' post='1954423']
Yes. Jesus said that. You aren't Jesus.
[/quote]
Those who have been baptized into Christ are Christ, for as St. Ignatios of Antioch explained, without the Church (i.e., the Body of Christ) our Lord becomes ineffectual.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Selah]

[quote]Catholics must stop hiding the light under a bushel.[/quote]

Would you call a morbidly obese person a "fat a**"? Or would you say, "Hey, I'm worried about you. You're becoming very unhealthy, and I don't want you to develop a health condition."? Some things are better said in subtly. You can express your dissaproval in a charitable way that not only gets your point across, but gets it across in a kind and respectful manner.

[quote]Those who have been baptized into Christ are Christ, and as St. Ignatios of Antioch explained, without the Church (i.e., the Body of Christ) our Lord becomes ineffectual[/quote]

Jesus was God. You are not God. You are part of His Church and are His child, but you are not Christ. You may even be one with Him, but you are not Him.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Selah

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1250977373' post='1954427']
Would you call a morbidly obese person a "fat a**"? Some things are better said in subtly. You can express your dissaproval in a charitable way that not only gets your point across, but gets it across in a kind and respectful manner.[/quote]
I speak the truth and if the persons health were in danger I would do so quite bluntly.

In this particular case we are speaking about the spiritual health of millions of people, and I would most certainly tell a member of the ELCA that he needs to get out of that heretical body, and enter into communion with the true Church.


[quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1250977373' post='1954427']
Jesus was God. You are not God. You are part of His Church and are His child, but you are not Christ. You may even be one with Him, but you are not Him.
[/quote]
So you deny that the Church in all her members is the Body of Christ? You need to read the homilies of the Fathers (especially St. Augustine) on the Church, because your comments reveal ignorance about the nature of the Church as the perpetual extension of the incarnation. Christians are sons of the Father, and brothers of Christ, and in so far was we live the Orthodox faith we are Christ to those around us.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='22 August 2009 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1250974302' post='1954407']
Although the snide personal comments between some posters are sad, I do not think that the thread itself has decayed. Stating a position that some people may not like to hear is not the same thing as "decay."
[/quote]
I'm not talking about opposing opinions, I was talking about the personal attacks that were occuring.
[quote name='MissyP89' date='22 August 2009 - 05:21 PM' timestamp='1250976115' post='1954414']
Calling them heretics--true or not--is not going to change anyone's heart in the ELCA, especially while we turn our noses down at them. How welcomed would [i]you[/i] feel in our Church if her members spoke of you as inconsequential, invalid, and evil?

This is a great loss for the ELCA and, indeed, for the Church as a whole. But as someone else noted, the conservatives will leave. Why not pray for them, that they might help heal the further schism brought about by coming into the fullness of Truth? We need to reach out and open our hearts to them now, not condemn.
[/quote]
I agree, we should reach out to them, but we also need to condemn their association's approval of sinful actions. Speaking of their community as approving of evil things is not the same as calling them evil. Further, if we acted as though we approved of their condoning of these things and that they were equally as valid as we, what purpose would they see in converting to our Religion? Certainly there are more loving and less loving ways to do this, but it needs to be done, regardless.

Edited August 22, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[Selah]

[quote]I speak the truth and if the persons health were in danger I would do so quite bluntly.[/quote]

I hope not in the way in which I presented the first example.

[quote]So you deny the Church in all her members is the Body of Christ? [/quote]

Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I just got done saying

Edited August 22, 2009 by Selah

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1250977719' post='1954431']
Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I just got done saying
[/quote]
Ironically, and without knowing it, that is precisely what you are doing, i.e., you are denying the doctrine of the Church as the Body of Christ. That said, I once believed as you do, but I gave up that belief when I became Catholic more than twenty years ago.

Edited August 22, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Selah]

[quote]Ironically, and without knowing it, that is precisely what you are doing. I once believed as you do, but I gave up that belief when I became Catholic more than twenty years ago. [/quote]

I said that YOU are not Jesus. YOU are not God. YOU are not a Divinity, a Deity, or any combination of the two!

How in Zeus's name did you interpret that as, "The Church is not the Body of Christ"?

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Selah' date='22 August 2009 - 05:42 PM' timestamp='1250977373' post='1954427']
Would you call a morbidly obese person a "fat a**"? Or would you say, "Hey, I'm worried about you. You're becoming very unhealthy, and I don't want you to develop a health condition."? Some things are better said in subtly. You can express your dissaproval in a charitable way that not only gets your point across, but gets it across in a kind and respectful manner.
[/quote]

This--and an apt analogy, too. We've seen what Protestant evangelism can do to others. Telling people they're evil and going to hell more often than not [b]does not change hearts[/b] for the better. Having someone call my religion perverted, skewed and evil two years ago didn't make me think, "Wow! I smell of elderberries! I need to go back to the Church ASAP."

Yes, Jesus was known for being blunt and tossing the occasional table. But perhaps more important than that was His incredible compassion, mercy, and love. Being steadfast about the Truth is absolutely necessary. However, being frigid does more harm than good. And frigidity is what I see in this thread.

Edited August 22, 2009 by MissyP89

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MissyP89' date='22 August 2009 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1250977928' post='1954435']
This--and an apt analogy, too. We've seen what Protestant evangelism can do to others. Telling people they're evil and going to hell more often than not [b]does not change hearts[/b] for the better. Having someone call my religion perverted, skewed and evil two years ago didn't make me think, "Wow! I smell of elderberries! I need to go back to the Church ASAP."

Yes, Jesus was known for being blunt and tossing the occasional table. But perhaps more important than that was His incredible compassion, mercy, and love. Being steadfast about the Truth is absolutely necessary. However, being frigid does more harm than good. And frigidity is what I see in this thread.
[/quote]
Only God changes hearts, but He does use His Church to speak truthfully, and yes bluntly, in the face of evil.

[Apotheoun]

I am afraid that many people at this forum would be shocked if they were to read what the saints and Fathers had to say when they confronted evil, because they were never concerned about being polite.